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13-8-2013 3:47 pm  #1


Next time your goods and car will be seized!

Did a round trip returning via Hull. It took 19 minutes to get from the boat to passport control.

Good morning where have you been today

France

Been anywhere else apart from France

Yes Belgium

Did you go out from here

No

Where did you go out from

Dover

Are you bringing anything back that you did not take out with you

Excise goods?

Anything at all (in a stroppy tone,the blonde woman on the infamous video, so her attitude is no better)

Shopping

What have you got

Cigarillos and hrt

How much hrt have you got

Xxx

Just pop the boot please so I can have a look.

OK just pull over there. I need to get an officer to come and have a word with you.

So we were directed into the sheds where the car was stripped. I handed over my SOT and it was studied in great detail  by 3 officers with calculators while one remained searching the car and talking to me.
I said ''officer I have an issue with the initial stop''
''What's that sir?''
''Cema and your Civil Interview guidelines state that there must be reasonable grounds for a stop. You cannot stop a person in the hope of gathering information that will lead to a seizure''
''well if it does sir, I am not privy to that information''
So out comes my notes and I show him the relevant points.

After a few minutes argument he finally said. ''By telling us that you have xx hrt at passport control we are duty bound to investigate''
''No officer, I did not volunteer that information, I was asked''
''but we were then duty bound to investigate''
So on that subject I was stonewalled
I have to say we were treated with respect by all the officers in the shed.
One little gem ''You seem unusually well versed on Cema sir?''
''Well you have to know your rights''
''would you like my epaulettes...''
''no officer that would be section 13''
''section 13?''
''Impersonating a customs officer''
''bloody hell scuse my swearing, you even know that''

It was decided to take no further action on this occasion but our names and vehicle reg would be entered onto the computer and whenever and wherever we passed through customs we would be stopped and checked.. If we are carrying more than the guidelines our goods and car will be seized.
I'm not saying how much hrt we had but let's say about 3 times the guidelines.


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13-8-2013 3:58 pm  #2


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

The main thing I take from that interview is this, and what I now do all of the time, I refuse to say anything until they tell me the reason for the stop. Categorically refuse. I would take your arguments into the debate BEFORE being asked about what you were shopping for. Basically get them to admit that they DON'T have any reasonable grounds first. Neutered.This is what I did at Prestwick in February, get them to admit to something which they could not know as it was not in my SAR and I refused to allow entry to my luggage until they told me the reasons for the stop.

 

13-8-2013 6:48 pm  #3


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

Celtic
Good valid points. The difficulty for me is that routine has gone out of the window. There's no longer a primary and secondary control point. If you are approached after passport control it is much easier to question the validity of the stop. They are now combining the stop at or before passport control where you have to stop obviously to show your passport.
I have been stopped on each of my last 3 trips. I have noticed in the last year they are really screwing the lid down on tobacco imports and I'm sure it will show when BF publish the figures or via an FOI request. Not heard much from SH lately but I would bet he's working harder than ever on appeals.


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13-8-2013 8:07 pm  #4


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

eezyrider wrote:

It was decided to take no further action on this occasion but our names and vehicle reg would be entered onto the computer and whenever and wherever we passed through customs we would be stopped and checked.. If we are carrying more than the guidelines our goods and car will be seized.

According to yourrights.org this can be construed as an offence. The reason being that the ukbwhatever are "harassing 2 or more people either to deter them from engaging in lawful activities, or to persuade them to do something they are not obliged to do".

 

13-8-2013 8:29 pm  #5


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

shopperleighonsea wrote:

eezyrider wrote:

It was decided to take no further action on this occasion but our names and vehicle reg would be entered onto the computer and whenever and wherever we passed through customs we would be stopped and checked.. If we are carrying more than the guidelines our goods and car will be seized.

According to yourrights.org this can be construed as an offence. The reason being that the ukbwhatever are "harassing 2 or more people either to deter them from engaging in lawful activities, or to persuade them to do something they are not obliged to do".

 Thanks for that Shopper. We are feeling a little deflated at the moment because we enjoy travelling. The shopping adds a sense of purpose to that so all ideas and info appreciated.


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14-8-2013 6:39 am  #6


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

Eezy thanks for posting up your trip experience.

Why do you go out from Dover and return through Hull?

Thanks.

JMK

 

14-8-2013 8:24 am  #7


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

Johny_MK wrote:

Eezy thanks for posting up your trip experience.

Why do you go out from Dover and return through Hull?

Thanks.

JMK

Johny
We live pretty much dead centre of the country so any port is quite a distance from here although Hull is about 50+ miles nearer. During the summer season a minicruise from Hull is about £200 and towards the tailend of last winter, with the offers, we were paying £95 for 2 of us with the car.
Thanks to Serendipity we found that if we went out via Dover and ret via Zeebrugge on the same day it was classed as a day return and the fare was £95 including the overnight cabin.We stay over at a cheap hotel in Folkestone which takes the pressure off dashing down to Dover for the ferry.Doing it this way we do a round trip without doubling back on ourselves and we are at the nearest ferryport when we land. My car just does the trip on a full tank of petrol so mileage is the same either way.

And of course we manage to avoid the dreaded Dover or Cocquelles customs although that is not such a bonus now!
 


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14-8-2013 9:59 am  #8


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

Sounds like an interesting trip.  I share your enjoyment of travelling.

I agree the comments from UKBF are a concern, although I do not see the basis for them.

As you are well aware, it is not an offence to exceed the prescribed guideline, subject to it being for your own use.

From the exchange you related above could it just be from a rogue UKBF officer?

JMK

 

14-8-2013 10:14 am  #9


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

Johny_MK wrote:

Sounds like an interesting trip.  I share your enjoyment of travelling.

I agree the comments from UKBF are a concern, although I do not see the basis for them.

As you are well aware, it is not an offence to exceed the prescribed guideline, subject to it being for your own use.

From the exchange you related above could it just be from a rogue UKBF officer?

JMK

In fairness I can't fault the attitude of the 4 officers involved. We were treated with respect, everything was explained to us and we were given every opportunity to say what we wanted and ask questions.

I'll try and edit the blanks out of the audio and post it up. There is very little personal info on it to edit.

We were told quite clearly though that if we travel again in 6 weeks time, which is our usual pattern, and had the same quantity of goods, ''I will guarantee your goods and car will be seized and  in any case you will definitely be stopped and checked whenever you pass through customs in future''
 


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14-8-2013 10:50 am  #10


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

eezyrider wrote:

Johny_MK wrote:

Sounds like an interesting trip.  I share your enjoyment of travelling.

I agree the comments from UKBF are a concern, although I do not see the basis for them.

As you are well aware, it is not an offence to exceed the prescribed guideline, subject to it being for your own use.

From the exchange you related above could it just be from a rogue UKBF officer?

JMK

In fairness I can't fault the attitude of the 4 officers involved. We were treated with respect, everything was explained to us and we were given every opportunity to say what we wanted and ask questions.

I'll try and edit the blanks out of the audio and post it up. There is very little personal info on it to edit.

We were told quite clearly though that if we travel again in 6 weeks time, which is our usual pattern, and had the same quantity of goods, ''I will guarantee your goods and car will be seized and  in any case you will definitely be stopped and checked whenever you pass through customs in future''
 

Eezy,
        apologies to yourself and the other members for not posting recently but l can assure you all that l do read everything. l've been very impressed by the way the forum has handled itself with advice and the like when questions come in, That was the reason for the forum ... to take pressure off ourselves so we can concentrate on actual appeals etc.

We currently have 3 ongoing and one is for the High Court and involves 120 pages of transcript! That's just the transcript and not all the accompanying evidence, FOIs etc etc.

Eezy, your incident is of great concern and l'd advise you to go and visit Hull BF HQ on King George Dock at your earliest opportunity or when the 2 for 1's start in Oct (before you sail ofcourse). Go suitably prepared.

Their threat has no legal basis whatsoever. How can it? l know you document all your travel and purchases so why should the next time you travel make any difference to whether your goods are seized or not?  Your reasons for travel and the amount you purchase will not differ from this time you were stopped. Your history will remain the same so how can another trip in 6 weeks time be any different? lf they did not believe your history then surely they should have seized the goods this time?

You have been threatened by BF and is blatantly in my view misconduct in public office http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/misconduct_in_public_office/   This is the threat l would use against them ... specifically the officer that threatened you. As we know any complaints by post are virtually pointless. However, at Hull BF do have offices and so take advantage of this as we have on a number of occassions.

We are fully expecting them to try this tactic used against you upon ourselves when we start the 2 for 1's in Oct ... we shall be prepared.
 


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14-8-2013 9:43 pm  #11


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

SH
No apologies needed I'm sure!

Thanks for your comments. I'm currently still collecting my thoughts and weighing up the options and of course listening to all advice.
A visit to BF Hull sounds a good idea, maybe linked to an overnight in the Campanile and a night in your local. How does that sound?
I've spent all day editing the audio and since I'm a 'marked man' I see no harm in posting it up so I'll put the links up in the next post and hope it works.


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14-8-2013 9:56 pm  #12


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

Note also no commerciality statement was read out as although this episode lasted 90 minutes or so, no formal interview was instigated

Last edited by eezyrider (01-9-2013 9:07 am)


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15-8-2013 8:32 am  #13


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

@07:08 Part 3
Officer: "They are guidelines, I stress that. This is a misnomer that people fail to understand."
Including themselves!

 

15-8-2013 1:38 pm  #14


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

The one thing that I find disturbing Is the fact that the officer has pre judged a future stop.
he has informed you that if you travel again in six weeks and purchase the same amount the goods and your vehicle will be siezed.
So much fo the Idea that each stop should be approached with the intention of obtaining the facts and not to obtain information to support a siezure.


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15-8-2013 2:40 pm  #15


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

''The one thing that I find disturbing Is the fact that the officer has pre judged a future stop.
he has informed you that if you travel again in six weeks and purchase the same amount the goods and your vehicle will be siezed.
So much fo the Idea that each stop should be approached with the intention of obtaining the facts and not to obtain information to support a siezure.''

We've known for some time that BF were running a campaign of disruption, harrassment and intimidation against personal shoppers and this recording proves it. Bear in mind no offence was committed or contravention found as no further action was taken. It is now a matter of deciding how to proceed from here.
In the meantime I will continue to exercise my rights.


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15-8-2013 6:57 pm  #16


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

Sounds rather like my experience at Hull in 2011. Lots of good natured banter with officers. The difference was in the parting words of the head officer "if we see you again in a years time we'll probably wave you through". Unfortunately, as he spoke those words he also slipped me a copy of that filthy Notice 1. And the rest, as they say, is history ....

Next time I'm stopped and asked if I'm carrying any obscene material I will be tempted to reply "just a copy of Notice 1".  However, such flippancy is all too likely to result in seizure, I fear

 

16-8-2013 8:23 am  #17


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

One thing I can't get my head round is why they did a full " strip search" of eezy's car as he had, when asked, fully declared all excise goods.

Were I to be smuggling something naughty I'd only have excise goods well within the guidelines and wouldn't draw attention to myself.


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16-8-2013 8:34 am  #18


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

On the other hand. They just want the excise goods. When I was stopped at Prestwick and had goods seized they never searched me. That would make it a criminal interview. They don't want that. I could have had a few kilos of something very naughty strapped to me or even in my pockets. Baccy could have been sacrificial cargo! Baccy shoppers are just so much easier to rob. Oh I should stress that I didn't have anything naughty at all.

 

16-8-2013 9:23 am  #19


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

Not been through Hull but would imagine they have ANPR and could access computer records of vehicle entering country.

There are certainly cameras at Coquelles and I suspect that, as previous car had Dover Kia dealer plates, we were viewed with suspicion and stopped a couple of times. In recent years we've never travelled more than twice a year and haven't been out of country by plane since 1978.


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16-8-2013 9:29 am  #20


Re: Next time your goods and car will be seized!

just listened the recordings,and congratulations you handled the situation very well indeed.

I recognised the voice of the ukbf woman in the first recording ha ha,some one well known to quite a few of us on here.

the ukbf seemed quite reasonable to a point,i have had these types of conversations with them before,it seemed like a warning type of advice to say ,if you travel again in a few months with that amount,another ukbf may take a different approach and seize your goods unless you can justify having that amount so soon after.

as for having your name flagged up on the computer,well i think this happens with myself ,each time i travel i get stopped,especially at Hull.


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