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21-12-2013 12:41 pm  #1


Passport control

Quote
~~Since the formation of the United Kingdom Border Agency in April 2008, legacy immigration staff
assessed by legacy HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) as suitable to carry out HMRC functions
on the primary checkpoint have additionally been conferred with certain Customs powers. Under
Section 78 of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 and Part 1 Paragraph 3 of the
Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009, Border Force officers may therefore ask questions
with regard to goods in baggage and since allowances differ depending on where such goods were
purchased, ask the passenger the origin of their flight / journey          unQuote

If I'm reading this right you can be stopped at passport control and legitimately be asked about what excise goods you are carrying, as we usually are, under s78


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21-12-2013 1:01 pm  #2


Re: Passport control

Looks like they've found a loophole to allow them to ask mebbe ? I know that the ossifer I got at my stop used that as an excuse when I mentioned the stop appeared to be random.


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21-12-2013 10:11 pm  #3


Re: Passport control

Home Office UK Border Agency
DIRECTIONS UNDER 5.78 (1) and (2) CUSTOMS & EXCISE MANAGEMENT ACT 1979
The Secretary of State and the Director of Border Revenue, in the exercise of their functions in relation to general customs matters and customs revenue matters under sections 1 and 7 respectively of the Borders Citizenship & Immigration Act 2009; and in the exercise of the powers conferred on them by section 78 of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 and all other powers in that regard, direct as follows·
MAKING DECLARATIONS
Ifa person entering the United Kingdom has goods to declare, that person shall, unless required do so in any other manner laid down in directions, do so in the following manner.
If so required by any proper officer at any place, orally, to that officer; but, if not so required, as follows at points 1·2 below:
1. If there is a 'Red Channel' or 'Red Point' orally, to any proper officer present at the Red Channel or at the Red Point or, if there is no such officer there present, over the telephone provided at the Red Channel or at the Red Point
2. If there is no 'Red Channel' or 'Red Point' In accordance with local arrangements agreed between the operators of the relevant facility and the proper officer or, if no such arrangements are in place, by telephone to the number published for such purposes or in writing to the nearest proper office.
PRODUCING BAGGAGE AND OTHER EFFECTS If so required by the proper officer, a person entering or leaving the United Kingdom shall produce their baggage and anything contained in their baggage or carried with them at the baggage hall or vehicle examination area or at such other place as the officer shall specify.
(Copied from   https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=section%2078%20cema%201979&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDUQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hmrc.gov.uk%2Flegislation%2Fcd-s78.pdf&ei=YhS2UuuDJIeLhQfM-IGwCQ&usg=AFQjCNG0EhkXvQ3e96NRDNHVUGHCeqR1pA&bvm=bv.58187178,d.ZG4 )

The above document stipulates that any person that has items to declare must do so  orally to any proper officer at any place. It does not mention anything about legally purchased EU tobacco products that does not need to be declared
It does not say that you must declare the contents of your baggage it also does not say that a proper officer is entitled to ask what your bags contain.
It also goes on to say that you must produce your baggage if so required it does not say that you need to inform them of the contents.
Although this document was produced by the goverment in 2011 it fails to fully explain section 78.
Is it little wonder that some officers have no idea what they are doing

Last edited by bordershopper (21-12-2013 10:14 pm)


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21-12-2013 10:50 pm  #4


Re: Passport control

S78(2)
Any person entering or leaving the United Kingdom shall answer such questions as the proper officer may put to him with respect to his baggage and any thing contained therein or carried with him, and shall, if required by the proper officer, produce that baggage and any such thing for examination at such place as the Commissioners may direct.

(Note that there is no mention of reasonable grounds necessary under S78)

We used to argue that this could only be done at the secondary control ie after you have passed through passport control (PCP) and got your passport back. However my quote above (from a UKBA foi)contradicts that and you are required to answer if asked if you are carrying excise goods.

One point from our stop last week. They ask you for ''some form of photo ID'' . So you instinctively hand over your passport and they will not hand them back until they have finished. In future I will be attaching scanned copies of our passports to our SOT and will probably blank out passport numbers. They can like it or not. If they accept it for a SAR they can accept it for a stop and we will not have to keep asking for our passports back.

Last edited by eezyrider (21-12-2013 11:01 pm)


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21-12-2013 11:04 pm  #5


Re: Passport control

eezyrider wrote:

S78(2)
Any person entering or leaving the United Kingdom shall answer such questions as the proper officer may put to him with respect to his baggage and any thing contained therein or carried with him, and shall, if required by the proper officer, produce that baggage and any such thing for examination at such place as the Commissioners may direct.

We used to argue that this could only be done at the secondary control ie after you have passed through passport control (PCP) and got your passport back. However my quote above (from a UKBA foi)contradicts that.
 

 
I agree but the document I linked to mentions nothing about what your baggage contains only how you should declare goods.
I maintain that I am not required to declare intra EU purchases.
This in my opinion is just another example of deliberate government misinformation.


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21-12-2013 11:09 pm  #6


Re: Passport control

bordershopper wrote:

eezyrider wrote:

S78(2)
Any person entering or leaving the United Kingdom shall answer such questions as the proper officer may put to him with respect to his baggage and any thing contained therein or carried with him, and shall, if required by the proper officer, produce that baggage and any such thing for examination at such place as the Commissioners may direct.

We used to argue that this could only be done at the secondary control ie after you have passed through passport control (PCP) and got your passport back. However my quote above (from a UKBA foi)contradicts that.
 

 
I agree but the document I linked to mentions nothing about what your baggage contains only how you should declare goods.
I maintain that I am not required to declare intra EU purchases.
This in my opinion is just another example of deliberate government misinformation.

You are absolutely right BS. But if you are asked where you have been and what are you carrying, you are required to tell them.


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22-12-2013 1:34 pm  #7


Re: Passport control

bordershopper wrote:

Home Office UK Border Agency
DIRECTIONS UNDER 5.78 (1) and (2) CUSTOMS & EXCISE MANAGEMENT ACT 1979
The Secretary of State and the Director of Border Revenue, in the exercise of their functions in relation to general customs matters and customs revenue matters under sections 1 and 7 respectively of the Borders Citizenship & Immigration Act 2009; and in the exercise of the powers conferred on them by section 78 of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 and all other powers in that regard, direct as follows·
MAKING DECLARATIONS
Ifa person entering the United Kingdom has goods to declare, that person shall, unless required do so in any other manner laid down in directions, do so in the following manner.
If so required by any proper officer at any place, orally, to that officer; but, if not so required, as follows at points 1·2 below:
1. If there is a 'Red Channel' or 'Red Point' orally, to any proper officer present at the Red Channel or at the Red Point or, if there is no such officer there present, over the telephone provided at the Red Channel or at the Red Point
2. If there is no 'Red Channel' or 'Red Point' In accordance with local arrangements agreed between the operators of the relevant facility and the proper officer or, if no such arrangements are in place, by telephone to the number published for such purposes or in writing to the nearest proper office.
PRODUCING BAGGAGE AND OTHER EFFECTS If so required by the proper officer, a person entering or leaving the United Kingdom shall produce their baggage and anything contained in their baggage or carried with them at the baggage hall or vehicle examination area or at such other place as the officer shall specify.
(Copied from https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=section%2078%20cema%201979&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDUQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hmrc.gov.uk%2Flegislation%2Fcd-s78.pdf&ei=YhS2UuuDJIeLhQfM-IGwCQ&usg=AFQjCNG0EhkXvQ3e96NRDNHVUGHCeqR1pA&bvm=bv.58187178,d.ZG4 )

The above document stipulates that any person that has items to declare must do so orally to any proper officer at any place. It does not mention anything about legally purchased EU tobacco products that does not need to be declared
It does not say that you must declare the contents of your baggage it also does not say that a proper officer is entitled to ask what your bags contain.
It also goes on to say that you must produce your baggage if so required it does not say that you need to inform them of the contents.
Although this document was produced by the goverment in 2011 it fails to fully explain section 78.
Is it little wonder that some officers have no idea what they are doing

I think your getting yourself confused. This document is about making a declaration. Think of it as S78 having two parts that go hand in hand. For example:

At the airports you have "Green-  Nothing to declare", "Red - Goods to declare" and "Blue - EU Channel".

Green Channel - You should use the green channel if you are travelling from outside the EU and have with you:

no more than your duty free allowances
no banned or restricted goods
less than 10,000 euros (or equivalent) in cash

Red Channel - Goods to delcare.

Blue channel - You should use the blue channel if you are travelling from a country within the European Union (EU) and you have no banned or restricted goods.

Section 78 of CEMA  gives the power to stop and ask questions about your travel and baggage

Any person entering or leaving the UK shall answer questions as the proper officer may put to him with respect to his baggage and any thing contained therein or carried withy him, and shall, if required by the proper officer, produce that baggage and any such thing for examinationat such place as the Commissioners may direct.
 

 

22-12-2013 1:38 pm  #8


Re: Passport control

bordershopper wrote:

eezyrider wrote:

S78(2)
Any person entering or leaving the United Kingdom shall answer such questions as the proper officer may put to him with respect to his baggage and any thing contained therein or carried with him, and shall, if required by the proper officer, produce that baggage and any such thing for examination at such place as the Commissioners may direct.

We used to argue that this could only be done at the secondary control ie after you have passed through passport control (PCP) and got your passport back. However my quote above (from a UKBA foi)contradicts that.
 

 
I agree but the document I linked to mentions nothing about what your baggage contains only how you should declare goods.
I maintain that I am not required to declare intra EU purchases.
This in my opinion is just another example of deliberate government misinformation.

Absoutley right, however I wouldnt say its governement miss information, its on the HMRC website. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/arriving/customs-channels.htm

You should use the blue channel if you are travelling from a country within the European Union (EU) and you have no banned or restricted goods.

However if your stopped and asked if your carrying and cigarettes and tobacco and you say no, then you've just made a false declaration. So you do have to declare when asked.

 

22-12-2013 1:40 pm  #9


Re: Passport control

eezyrider wrote:

One point from our stop last week. They ask you for ''some form of photo ID'' . So you instinctively hand over your passport and they will not hand them back until they have finished. In future I will be attaching scanned copies of our passports to our SOT and will probably blank out passport numbers. They can like it or not. If they accept it for a SAR they can accept it for a stop and we will not have to keep asking for our passports back.

I mentioned this in another thread, but will highlight it again here.

Im afriad those days are long gone. Under S78 the officer has no power to require your passport. That was changed many years later and S157A was introduced giving the specfic power.

Section 157A of the Customs and Excise Mangement Act 1979 gives the following power.

(1) The proper officer of Revenue and Customs may require any person entering or leaving the United Kingdom  -
(a) to produce  the persons passport or travel documents for examination, or
(b) to answer any questions put by the proper officer of Revenue and Customs about the persons journey.

Last edited by Dave (22-12-2013 1:40 pm)

 

22-12-2013 2:15 pm  #10


Re: Passport control

Dave wrote:

Section 157A of the Customs and Excise Mangement Act 1979 gives the following power.

(1) The proper officer of Revenue and Customs may require any person entering or leaving the United Kingdom  -
(a) to produce  the persons passport or travel documents for examination, or
(b) to answer any questions put by the proper officer of Revenue and Customs about the persons journey.

UKBF seem to think the highlighted word is 'AND'. Who's going to be the first to put it to the test? It's unlikely to be me as I won't be able to go over for several months as I now need to camp down there for a night or two since doing the trip in a single day is beyond my capabilities and the sites I prefer are closed until Spring.


They lie on recordings; they lie on oath; their shysters lie on their behalf. Don't believe a word coming from the mouths (2 per person) of any UKBA officer.
 

22-12-2013 2:19 pm  #11


Re: Passport control

Sir Henry wrote:

Dave wrote:

Section 157A of the Customs and Excise Mangement Act 1979 gives the following power.

(1) The proper officer of Revenue and Customs may require any person entering or leaving the United Kingdom  -
(a) to produce  the persons passport or travel documents for examination, or
(b) to answer any questions put by the proper officer of Revenue and Customs about the persons journey.

UKBF seem to think the highlighted word is 'AND'. Who's going to be the first to put it to the test? It's unlikely to be me as I won't be able to go over for several months as I now need to camp down there for a night or two since doing the trip in a single day is beyond my capabilities and the sites I prefer are closed until Spring.

S157A to request passport
S78 to ask questions about journey.

 

22-12-2013 3:26 pm  #12


Re: Passport control

Dave

Are we not confusing the primary and secondary control points here?

You are of course required to show your passport when entering the country. What I was referring to is when stopped at secondary control points. They do not ask for passports but ''some form of photo ID''. Hence my ref to scanned copies.


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22-12-2013 3:33 pm  #13


Re: Passport control

eezyrider wrote:

Dave

Are we not confusing the primary and secondary control points here?

You are of course required to show your passport when entering the country. What I was referring to is when stopped at secondary control points. They do not ask for passports but ''some form of photo ID''. Hence my ref to scanned copies.

No.

The Immigration Act 1971 gives an officer the power to request passport or national ID for immigration purposes.

S157A Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 gives an officer the power to request passport or national ID for customs purposes.

 

22-12-2013 4:35 pm  #14


Re: Passport control

OK lets take a typical scenario.

You pass through passport control and are then stopped under s78. You are carrying excise goods so the stop then reverts to s163a. At what point if any are you required to produce your passport?


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22-12-2013 4:47 pm  #15


Re: Passport control

eezyrider wrote:

OK lets take a typical scenario.

You pass through passport control and are then stopped under s78. You are carrying excise goods so the stop then reverts to s163a. At what point if any are you required to produce your passport?

When requested by an officer which s157A CEMA allows him/her to do.

 

22-12-2013 5:16 pm  #16


Re: Passport control

Dave wrote:

eezyrider wrote:

OK lets take a typical scenario.

You pass through passport control and are then stopped under s78. You are carrying excise goods so the stop then reverts to s163a. At what point if any are you required to produce your passport?

When requested by an officer which s157A CEMA allows him/her to do.

OK I take it s157a is a relatively recent amendment as I can only find references to it rather than a copy of CEMA with it in.Not that I'm doubting what you are saying Dave.

Going back to the original scenario, when stopped under s78 the officer usually asks for some form of photo ID as we were asked last week. On that basis there is no requirement to produce your passport unless as you say the officer says he requires it under s157a. Am I right?
 


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22-12-2013 5:18 pm  #17


Re: Passport control

Dave wrote:

Sir Henry wrote:

Dave wrote:

Section 157A of the Customs and Excise Mangement Act 1979 gives the following power.

(1) The proper officer of Revenue and Customs may require any person entering or leaving the United Kingdom  -
(a) to produce  the persons passport or travel documents for examination, or
(b) to answer any questions put by the proper officer of Revenue and Customs about the persons journey.

UKBF seem to think the highlighted word is 'AND'. Who's going to be the first to put it to the test? It's unlikely to be me as I won't be able to go over for several months as I now need to camp down there for a night or two since doing the trip in a single day is beyond my capabilities and the sites I prefer are closed until Spring.

S157A to request passport
S78 to ask questions about journey.

Dave.
The quote by sir henry is clearly headed 157A.

 


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22-12-2013 5:26 pm  #18


Re: Passport control

eezyrider wrote:

Dave wrote:

eezyrider wrote:

OK lets take a typical scenario.

You pass through passport control and are then stopped under s78. You are carrying excise goods so the stop then reverts to s163a. At what point if any are you required to produce your passport?

When requested by an officer which s157A CEMA allows him/her to do.

OK I take it s157a is a relatively recent amendment as I can only find references to it rather than a copy of CEMA with it in.Not that I'm doubting what you are saying Dave.

Going back to the original scenario, when stopped under s78 the officer usually asks for some form of photo ID as we were asked last week. On that basis there is no requirement to produce your passport unless as you say the officer says he requires it under s157a. Am I right?
 

It is fairly recent.

If they omnly ask for photo id, then by all means produce whatever you like with a photo on it. All im saying is that BF do have the power to request your passport.

 

22-12-2013 5:28 pm  #19


Re: Passport control

bordershopper wrote:

Dave wrote:

Sir Henry wrote:

UKBF seem to think the highlighted word is 'AND'. Who's going to be the first to put it to the test? It's unlikely to be me as I won't be able to go over for several months as I now need to camp down there for a night or two since doing the trip in a single day is beyond my capabilities and the sites I prefer are closed until Spring.

S157A to request passport
S78 to ask questions about journey.

Dave.
The quote by sir henry is clearly headed 157A.

 

Sorry, you've lost me here!

 

22-12-2013 5:33 pm  #20


Re: Passport control

Thanks for clarifying that and I've no doubt BF have powers to cover most scenarios. We don't encourage anybody to break the rules, it's more about each party playing by the rules and knowing their rights.
That is what the forum is about.


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