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22-6-2014 11:01 am  #41


Re: Won

The appeal at Crown is a fresh new start to hear the case again. Since the s144 was granted at mags that  will also be defunct (if that's the right word) as will the original verdict because the case is being reheard.

''Following your logic are you saying that if a shopper wanted to accept the seizure of his goods but wanted to appeal only against the seizure of his car the crown court would hear the whole case and might even overturn the seizure of goods even though that part of the judgement was not appealed?''

 Correct! As we have said you do not have to give specific reasons to appeal. You are appealing against the verdict. As far as I know the only time you have a choice when appealing is in a criminal case where you can appeal against the verdict or the sentence. This obviously does not apply in a civil hearing.

I didn't really make myself clear above. It can never be a foregone conclusion as to what the outcome of a case will be. Even a legal professional will not say ''we should win''. What I'm saying is don't be over-confident that the outcome will be the same at a rehearing. You still have to put in all the hard work you did at the first hearing as well as pre-empting what additional arguments are going to be put forward and preparing your counter argument. If however during the hearing, you can prove to the judge that BF acted unreasonably, then that is your argument against a s144, and not to bring it up as a separate issue. The object is to win the case, s144 unfortunately is one of the constraints we have to work with.


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24-6-2014 3:24 pm  #42


Re: Won

bordershopper wrote:

I am not doubting you knowledge or experience . I was basing my comments on the fact that UKBF are appealing against the failure to condemn and I assumed that the 144 would remain in place as it was not being appealed by either party.
Following your logic are you saying that if a shopper wanted to accept the seizure of his goods but wanted to appeal only against the seizure of his car the crown court would hear the whole case and might even overturn the seizure of goods even though that part of the judgement was not appealed?
 

As has already been pointed out, the appeal is a complete rehearing of the case. If a shopper just wanted his car back and not the goods, the correct forum would be the tribunal not the court. If the goods are condemned as forfeit, both magistrates and crown court have the discretion not to condemn the car (on the grounds of proportionality). This is somewhat academic anyway as the car has been restored.

I agree with eezyrider that it would be a big mistake to become fixated with the Cert 144. The main thing is to win the appeal. A Cert 144 will almost certainly be issued due to the quantity of the goods.

Concentrate on winning the appeal and then claim as much compensation as possible for the destruction of the goods. If you can claim some court costs this is an added bonus.



 

 

24-6-2014 3:55 pm  #43


Re: Won

Thanks all for the posts. I will most certainly be concentrating on winning the appeal.

     Thread Starter
 

25-11-2014 10:01 pm  #44


Re: Won

DECISION OVERTURNED TODAY AT CROWN COURT, I CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT JUST HAPPENED. The judge asked the UKBF for advice on proceedings from the start and he from there on (
the UKBF councellor) steered the entire proceedings. The UKBF agent A M perjured himself in court and lied. He denied the statements he made in the magistrates court saying "I did not say that" he basically redacted everything he said at the Magistrates court. He fucking lied. He is a fucking liar.

The 3 judges ignored everything I said in defence including the illegal interview, the bullying in the interview, the facts that the goods were not hidden, and that other goods were not mixed (they were in the back seat of the car not the boot). This was a railroad, there is no justice here. I was fitted up in a court room. The result was decided before I walked into the court room. I won this case at Dover Magistrates court because it was shown that the goods were no purchased for commercial purposes. These people in this court have most shamefully ignored the law to get a result that sits comfortably with the government.

I stated in court that I will appeal the decision and asked how I could do this, but no one knew including the judges. One of the Clerks said I think you need to go to a website jgov.uk.

My personal feeling is that what took place today was illegal. And now I need to appeal. I was also told that the only way I can appeal is on a point of law. NO POINTS OF LAW WERE DISCUSSED. In other words you are fucked. Well I don't accept that, this was not justice it was a farce, and If I had a lawyer I would have won my case because they are aware of all the traps used in courts.
THIS IS NOT BRITISH JUSTICE THERE IS NO MAGNA CARTA HERE.

No apologies. He lied!

Last edited by Highlander (26-11-2014 5:49 pm)

     Thread Starter
 

26-11-2014 9:14 am  #45


Re: Won

sorry to hear.

certainly you have been fitted up,you got over the biggest and hardest hurdle at magistrates,this should have been a formality.


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26-11-2014 6:36 pm  #46


Re: Won

Yes sincere commiserations it must be a bitter blow after winning in the mags.

The way forward is now somewhat complicated.

If you wish to appeal the decision on the grounds of procedural unfairness you should apply for judicial review. On the other hand, if your appeal is on a point of law you need to appeal by way of case stated (under the provisions of CEMA schedule 3 paragraph 11)

Either way, it will involve proceedings in the High Court and there are strict time limits (3 months for judicial review, 21 days for appeal by case stated)

I suggest you read the following carefully http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenges_to_decisions_of_England_and_Wales_magistrates%27_courts

You should apply for legal aid, and if this is refused you may be able to appeal direct to the ECHR (see Tsfayo v United Kingdom)

Hope this information is of some use.
 

 

26-11-2014 8:14 pm  #47


Re: Won

Many thanks TU I will read and digest, although I'm not sure what to appeal on. In essence no law was applied. it was pure and simple the opinion of the Judge. How do you appeal that? on any given day any other judge would have said the exact opposite.

Thanks again, calmed down a bit, now I will think it through.

     Thread Starter
 

26-11-2014 8:28 pm  #48


Re: Won

What reasons did the judge give you for forfeiting the goods?

 

27-11-2014 1:01 pm  #49


Re: Won

Sorry to hear your news Highlander.

As you say it's times like this where some serious legal representation is invaluable. However it should be of no surprise to anybody that a uniform and the truth do not necessarily go hand in hand.


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04-12-2014 2:06 pm  #50


Re: Won

turbulentupstart wrote:

What reasons did the judge give you for forfeiting the goods?

Mixed brands (There were only two)
I live close to Dover
I had more money on me at the time and could have bought more.

In other words complete nonsense!

     Thread Starter
 

04-12-2014 2:09 pm  #51


Re: Won

A little more help needed guys, I can't find a lawyer who will take up the application for legal aid. I got the website but it seems to only have advice for lawyers.
Any pionters on how to apply for the Judicial review? I think I will need to do it on my own.

Regards
Highlander

     Thread Starter
 

05-12-2014 8:40 pm  #52


Re: Won

You could try applying for pro bono representation. You need to be referred by your local MP or by a citizens advice bureau or other similar body

Information about how to apply for judicial review here:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/rcj-rolls-building/administrative-court/applying-for-judicial-review

 

Last edited by turbulentupstart (05-12-2014 8:44 pm)

 

05-12-2014 10:29 pm  #53


Re: Won

turbulentupstart wrote:

You could try applying for pro bono representation. You need to be referred by your local MP or by a citizens advice bureau or other similar body

Information about how to apply for judicial review here:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/rcj-rolls-building/administrative-court/applying-for-judicial-review

 

Many thanks for the response TU, and wow what a process. I shall work my way through it and something will happen.

Regards Highlander

     Thread Starter
 

18-12-2014 6:23 pm  #54


Re: Won

I have decide to appeal direct to the ECHR. I have the form and the court instructions but does anyone know of anything else? It does say I will need a lawyer at some point but not yet, any advice appreciated.

     Thread Starter
 

20-12-2014 10:20 am  #55


Re: Won

Highlander wrote:

I have decide to appeal direct to the ECHR. I have the form and the court instructions but does anyone know of anything else? It does say I will need a lawyer at some point but not yet, any advice appreciated.

Personally I know very little of procedures beyond crown court. Also I get confused between ECHR, ECJ and various other EC thingys!  A couple of points I've dredged from my somewhat addled brain though - Am I right in thinking that a case has to be accepted by the ECHR to be heard by them and also do you not have to exhaust a state's domestic procedures first?

Sorry can't be more helpful.
 


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20-12-2014 9:33 pm  #56


Re: Won

eezyrider wrote:

Highlander wrote:

I have decide to appeal direct to the ECHR. I have the form and the court instructions but does anyone know of anything else? It does say I will need a lawyer at some point but not yet, any advice appreciated.

Personally I know very little of procedures beyond crown court. Also I get confused between ECHR, ECJ and various other EC thingys!  A couple of points I've dredged from my somewhat addled brain though - Am I right in thinking that a case has to be accepted by the ECHR to be heard by them and also do you not have to exhaust a state's domestic procedures first?

Sorry can't be more helpful.

 

Hi Eezy
Not sure about the acceptance part I don't know how that would work! With regards to the states procedures I think they have been exhausted.

I can't get a Judicial review there is a 21 day limit and extortionate costs for that route,

Appeal to high court is also ruled out as the Judge said he didn't think I could appeal and directed me to the counsel for UKBF for advice and he said I could only appeal on grounds of a point of law, as no law was discussed I can't see how I could appeal using that avenue.

ECHR Human Rights. (you can only appeal if your human rights have been violated by the state) Which mine most definately have.
ECJ Justice. Have not looked at that yet.

Thanks for the response.

     Thread Starter
 

21-12-2014 10:45 am  #57


Re: Won

I have lifted the following quote from elsewhere:-

The biggest hurdle in applying to the ECHR is the requirement to exhaust domestic jurisdiction, having followed all domestic procedures correctly. If you have been told by the Court of Appeal that you have exhausted domestic procedure, and you have not applied to the Court of Appeal for permission to appeal out of time, then the application to the ECHR may be accepted. You will also need to follow the ECHR procedure correctly which will be sent to you when you first write to them stating your intention to make an application. There is a time limit to commence an ECHR application which I believe is explained on their website and is counted from the date when you have exhausted domestic procedure, not from when the Human Rights breaches occurred.

This is a reply to a specific case and is probably not wholly applicable to your circumstances, but you get the gist of it................


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30-12-2014 8:06 pm  #58


Re: Won

Highlander wrote:

eezyrider wrote:

Highlander wrote:

I have decide to appeal direct to the ECHR. I have the form and the court instructions but does anyone know of anything else? It does say I will need a lawyer at some point but not yet, any advice appreciated.

Personally I know very little of procedures beyond crown court. Also I get confused between ECHR, ECJ and various other EC thingys!  A couple of points I've dredged from my somewhat addled brain though - Am I right in thinking that a case has to be accepted by the ECHR to be heard by them and also do you not have to exhaust a state's domestic procedures first?

Sorry can't be more helpful.

 

Hi Eezy
Not sure about the acceptance part I don't know how that would work! With regards to the states procedures I think they have been exhausted.

I can't get a Judicial review there is a 21 day limit and extortionate costs for that route,

Appeal to high court is also ruled out as the Judge said he didn't think I could appeal and directed me to the counsel for UKBF for advice and he said I could only appeal on grounds of a point of law, as no law was discussed I can't see how I could appeal using that avenue.

ECHR Human Rights. (you can only appeal if your human rights have been violated by the state) Which mine most definately have.
ECJ Justice. Have not looked at that yet.

Thanks for the response.

Time limit for judicial review is 3 months not 21 days. You are right about the potential costs however, even if you represent yourself you could be liable for the other side's costs.

Regarding exhaustion of domestic remedies, you are normally expected to proceed as far as the Court of Appeal. If you decide to appeal direct to ECHR you will need to rely on the potential expense and complexity of judicial review proceedings and also that the judge in the crown court told you that you could not make a further appeal.

Useful information about judicial review can be found here:
Judicial Review quick and easy guide - Leigh Day

Information about exhaustion of domestic remedies here:
http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/09/17/how-do-you-exhaust-local-remedies-for-the-purpose-of-applying-to-strasbourg/
 

 

31-12-2014 3:36 pm  #59


Re: Won

Hi TU Thanks for the response and the links, most helpful, I am in the process of completing the appeal request to the ECHR. I didn't know the court of appeal was another court that I could apply to but it seems I need to get permission to go down that route. A judicial review is out of the question it is just to costly. I will need to have a think about the Court of appeal route.

Thanks again.

     Thread Starter
 

31-12-2014 6:19 pm  #60


Re: Won

I'll bow to superior knowledge, but I was sure the next stop after Crown court for condems was the High Court?


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