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30-4-2015 12:59 pm  #1


Case WON but problem getting money back

Hi everyone,
I won my case in Dover and was awarded cost of tobbacco plus travel costs = £780 (ish) + £200 costs.
I have received an email from someone asking for my account number so I can be paid.
I replied with 2 questions:
1. Am I being paid for the goods and the costs? (approx £980+)
2. How do I get the money back for the vehicle release? (approx £1400) (the duty I would have paid if bought here)
I have had no reply as yet.
So, what do I do now?
Suggestions would be gratefully received.
Sincerely
Oletimer

 

30-4-2015 2:20 pm  #2


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

Congrats on winning your case, great news!

Your point 2). sorry but I'm not sure what you mean. Was your car seized and if so did the court order it to be returned to you? If so there is no money involved.

Sorry if I'm missing the mark here.


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30-4-2015 7:34 pm  #3


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

Thank you for your reply eezyrider.
I was stopped and suffered a 2.5 hr search. The passengers on the bus I was driving had to wait in the cold whilst this took place. Eventually, they stole my tobacco and said I had to pay £1400+ to get my bus back - knowing that I couldn't leave my passengers on the dock side! (this money was calculated as being the duty I would have paid if tobacco was purchased here)
They were ordered in court to pay me for the goods +£200 costs.
An email from the Director of Border Revenue's office asked me bank details to repay costs, but didn't make it clear if the costs included the cost of tobacco plus the court cost, or, just the court cost.
Also in court, their barrister said the bus was impounded legally and the court said I had to apply to BF for a refund, but that they were not legally bound to offer one?
Hence my questions.
Cheers
Oletimer

Last edited by Oletimer (30-4-2015 7:36 pm)

     Thread Starter
 

30-4-2015 7:39 pm  #4


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

Oletimer wrote:

Thank you for your reply eezyrider.
I was stopped and suffered a 2.5 hr search. The passengers on the bus I was driving had to wait in the cold whilst this took place. Eventually, they stole my tobacco and said I had to pay £1400+ to get my bus back - knowing that I couldn't leave my passengers on the dock side! (this money was calculated as being the duty I would have paid if tobacco was purchased here)
They were ordered in court to pay me for the goods +£200 costs.
An email from the Director of Border Revenue's office asked me bank details to repay costs, but didn't make it clear if the costs included the cost of tobacco plus the court cost, or, just the court cost.
Hence my questions.
Cheers
Oletimer

hi. don't wait for them to act, do it yourself. send them a letter deemanding payment of goods + this what you paid as penalty to get your bus back + court costs. hope you have receipt for £1400+ you have paid to get bus back.


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30-4-2015 8:24 pm  #5


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

You need to apply to the NPSU for compensation for the goods and the bus. As I understand it, If the bus was not carrying goods liable to forfeiture it was unlawfully seized and they are obliged to refund  the money you paid to get the bus back.

 

30-4-2015 8:43 pm  #6


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

Thanks for clarifying that.

Well this is all new to me, I have never heard such a load of BS. I would agree with Piotrek and TU above.

How can the magistrates possibly rule the seizure was illegal yet the imposition of an instant duty penalty was Legal? I have never heard of a duty demand being imposed at the point of seizure.

As already said, contact NPSU and demand an explanation as to when you can expect your £1400 back as the seizure was ruled illegal. We have found in the past that via fax gets the quickest response if all else fails.


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03-5-2015 9:47 am  #7


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

Allow me to clarify matters:

The BF said the £1400 wasn't duty, it was a release fee for the vehicle.
In court their Gob said that the 1400 was legal because I gave reason for BF to seize goods by not telling BF when they asked 'have you any more tobacco?'
Upon 'finding' the other tobacco (which was lieing in plain view in the drivers compartment) they made out I had tried to deceive them.
What is the NPSU?
How does that work?
Not sure about faxes from my computer http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/confused.png
 (too old with sawdust in the head)
Oletimer

     Thread Starter
 

03-5-2015 12:15 pm  #8


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

I still think it is an outrage that having won your case they are not refunding your money.

That aside....

Did the court award a s144 certificate to customs at the end of your hearing?

What paperwork do you have relating to the £1400. I assume you have something which tells you under what regulation and which Act (eg CEMA or the Finance Act), the money was demanded under?

The fact that customs say you underdeclared your goods is not relevant as the court decided otherwise.

NPSU is the National Post Seizure Unit who deal with cases after a seizure.

You could probably send a fax if you had to from your local library.


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03-5-2015 3:46 pm  #9


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

Oletimer wrote:

it was a release fee for the vehicle

http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=12975#p12975

In the case linked to, the/this so-called fee was quashed. Have you considered or requested restoration?

Last edited by shopperleighonsea (03-5-2015 3:48 pm)

 

07-5-2015 9:42 am  #10


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

Hi Gang,

Thank you for your replies, I need advice on the following:

1. How do I send a fax to NPSU?
2. What do I need to say and how do I word it?

Thanks again.
Oletimer

     Thread Starter
 

07-5-2015 12:01 pm  #11


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

Oletimer wrote:

Hi Gang,

Thank you for your replies, I need advice on the following:

1. How do I send a fax to NPSU?
2. What do I need to say and how do I word it?

Thanks again.
Oletimer

Starting to go round in circles here http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


Until you give the information requested in post #8 above we can't advise what to say to NPSU.

Have you not got any paperwork from NPSU with their fax number on? These numbers are updated sometimes so need to be sure.
 


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07-5-2015 5:15 pm  #12


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

Dear Friends
Please accept my sincere apologies, I really don't mean to appear idiotic but, I had managed to usurp BF in the court at Dover. I naturally asumed that BF would pay up and all would be ok. I hadn't reckoned on the big deal they are now making about returning what has been proven to be mine. According to a Ms Evans at the Immigration Office, who asked me for my bank details to pay costs: 
1. That (her) office can only pay the costs awarded to me at court.
2. I will need to get in touch with NPSU for the return of monies relating to the 7.8kg of tobacco siezed.
3. I will need to also ask NPSU to augment the return of the £1400+ that BF took for the release of the bus.
When I won, I felt really delighted as all appeared to be going ok, I now feel very bogged down and am not at all sure as to what I should do next. Now it would appear that our wonderful government has given BF the right to do anything they want to, I didn't realise BF took things so personally, no doubt had they won I would now be in deep doo-doo.
Regarding your comments:
I didn't hear anything about s144 in court. (Their Gob was trying to get the court to agree that the £1400 charged to release the bus was justiefiable because I had not told BF about other tobacco 'hidden' in the drivers area)
I have receipt for money paid to release vehicle. (also verified in their documentation)
If I have been over this ground before, I apologise, being an ode git, it sometimes doesn't sink in until smashed in with a sledgehammer - then whilst fretting about one thing, forgets something else, sorry.
Sincerely
Oletimer

     Thread Starter
 

07-5-2015 7:02 pm  #13


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

It is extremely rare these days for BF to lose and not be awarded a s144 ''protection'' certificate. After the hearing you would normally have something from the court stating the outcome of the case and if a s144 is granted it would normally be mentioned on it. If by some stroke of good fortune a s144 has not been granted then BF/HMRC can be held to account for their actions. Once the court case ends and there is no appeal the procedures under CEMA no longer exist and you are free to take whatever course of action you please.

As far as we are aware this means you can claim through the small claims court all monies owing and out of pocket expenses such as travel costs etc. I would suggest you write or fax NPSU (reg'd if by post) with an invoice for the return of your 1400 plus anything else you wish to claim. Warn them if no reply within 14 days you will pursue the matter through the small claims procedure.

I emphasise though you must be sure about the s144.


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08-5-2015 2:21 pm  #14


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

I shall go thru my paperwork and look for it.
Thank you
Oletimer

     Thread Starter
 

08-5-2015 4:41 pm  #15


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

eezyrider wrote:

It is extremely rare these days for BF to lose and not be awarded a s144 ''protection'' certificate. After the hearing you would normally have something from the court stating the outcome of the case and if a s144 is granted it would normally be mentioned on it. If by some stroke of good fortune a s144 has not been granted then BF/HMRC can be held to account for their actions. Once the court case ends and there is no appeal the procedures under CEMA no longer exist and you are free to take whatever course of action you please.

As far as we are aware this means you can claim through the small claims court all monies owing and out of pocket expenses such as travel costs etc. I would suggest you write or fax NPSU (reg'd if by post) with an invoice for the return of your 1400 plus anything else you wish to claim. Warn them if no reply within 14 days you will pursue the matter through the small claims procedure.

I emphasise though you must be sure about the s144.

I think even if s144 has been granted £1400 for release of the vehicle should be paid back as it was on spot fine for smuggling excise goods. It was proven in court UKBA was wrong so no fines, duty shall be payable.
 


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08-5-2015 6:00 pm  #16


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

piotrek wrote:

eezyrider wrote:

It is extremely rare these days for BF to lose and not be awarded a s144 ''protection'' certificate. After the hearing you would normally have something from the court stating the outcome of the case and if a s144 is granted it would normally be mentioned on it. If by some stroke of good fortune a s144 has not been granted then BF/HMRC can be held to account for their actions. Once the court case ends and there is no appeal the procedures under CEMA no longer exist and you are free to take whatever course of action you please.

As far as we are aware this means you can claim through the small claims court all monies owing and out of pocket expenses such as travel costs etc. I would suggest you write or fax NPSU (reg'd if by post) with an invoice for the return of your 1400 plus anything else you wish to claim. Warn them if no reply within 14 days you will pursue the matter through the small claims procedure.

I emphasise though you must be sure about the s144.

I think even if s144 has been granted £1400 for release of the vehicle should be paid back as it was on spot fine for smuggling excise goods. It was proven in court UKBA was wrong so no fines, duty shall be payable.
 

Yes quite right. It's just a matter of deciding which is the best way to get it back. It would be helpful if we knew under what regulation the 1400 was taken. I suspect the Finance Act rather than CEMA
 


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09-5-2015 7:28 am  #17


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

The BF said the £1400 was a release fee for the vehicle because it had been used to carry the goods.
I was allowed the option to leave it there
Just back from graft so looking for s144 soon
Later
Oletimer

     Thread Starter
 

21-5-2015 7:42 pm  #18


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

Hi Gang,
Just thought I'd keep you abreast of what's happening re: waiting for money.
Had a letter which says 'we're going to pay you for everything', fill in details on the form (Name, Bank, etc.)
The only bit I wasn't sure about was the bit which said: "...we shall pay you as soon as possible".
How long was that piece of string?
Am I right to understand the quote to say " we'll take as long as we possibly before we have GOT to pay you", or am I being cinical?
Anyway, they've agreed to cough up everything - eventually.
My brother said, ok, fine, now ask for a copy of your passport status regarding future movements, and whether they've put you on a watch list - can they/ do they do this?
He also said " now get over and buy the exact amount they stole, and carry the letters with you - and if they ask, you're only replacing what BF stole".
Anyway, looks like I shall win - sometime in the future.
Cheers
George

     Thread Starter
 

17-7-2015 9:13 pm  #19


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

they still owe me money
they just sent a letter today stating they'll give me back the money i paid in belgium for the tobacco

i dont want the money i want the baccy, is there any way they can give me the baccy or recompense me at UK prices instead of EU prices??


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17-7-2015 10:07 pm  #20


Re: Case WON but problem getting money back

mrc wrote:

they still owe me money
they just sent a letter today stating they'll give me back the money i paid in belgium for the tobacco

i dont want the money i want the baccy, is there any way they can give me the baccy or recompense me at UK prices instead of EU prices??

Unfortunately you won't get the baccy because it is destroyed as ''perishable goods'' within about 30 days of the seizure.

AS regards compensation I seem to recall that a s144 was awarded to BF in your case. That being the case I'm afraid there are plenty of precedents whereby it is established that they are only obliged to pay you the purchase cost of the goods. You can argue with them over the prevailing exchange rates and you might just eke a few quid more but that's about it.By all means argue the toss but when you get the letter ''final offer'' then it's all over.
 


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