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28-9-2012 11:28 am  #1


Your Day in Court Part 1

Representing yourself in court is called 'Litigant in Person' (LIP). Ideally everyone should have a lawyer representing them but because the access to Legal Aid is a virtual zero, you, yourself, have to instruct a lawyer to act for you. This costs money and not an inconsiderable amount either. A further problem is actually finding a lawyer who understands Condemnation Proceedings and people have indeed found this difficult. Unfortunately most people don't have the funds to pay a lawyer and so are left with no alternative but to defend themselves. This is no mean feat and you have to be prepared to put in a lot of effort and research. lf you don't do this, you are simply wasting your time and the courts ... and you will be invariably liable to costs!

Being a LIP means you will be frowned upon by the prosecution and more often than not, the bench. lt's up to you to show that you are not wasting their time.

Putting aside the details of your case for the moment, the thing that you have to learn is the rules and procedures of the court. View it as a game albeit a very serious game. Playing it without knowing the rules will no doubt end up pissing the bench off and alienating them ... not good! By knowing the rules and procedures and adhering yourself to them will go a very long way to avoiding this. Another point is not to turn up looking like something the cat's dragged in ... courts view that as disrespectful. Personally, not only would l go dressed in something smart, l go dressed in clothes that l feel good in. ln fact, l'd say dress as though you are going on a first date ... nothing too flashy and definitely cut down on the 'bling'.

Also refer to the magistrates or district judges as Sir or Madam ... whether you believe in it or not! Do it!

l'd also advise for you to take a McKenzie Friend who can assist you whilst in court. We return to what a McKenzie Friend is in more detail later.

Your day in court will be something like this but be aware that the bench have the power to change it should they so wish. Again we'll go deeper into later. Anyway, a brief guide :-

1. The judge enters and you all stand up. The judge then gives a brief outline of the case and you will be asked to identify yourselves and state that you are the owner of the goods in question re the Condemnation Proceedings

2. Prosecution then makes a statement outlining the case against you. Do NOT interrupt. lt is NOT your time to speak. Shut up and listen and take notes of what prosecution are saying.

3. Prosecution will then call their witness who will then be sworn in. Prosecution will then ask this witness questions which they believe will prove their case against you. Do NOT interrupt. lt is NOT your time to speak. Shut up and listen and take notes of what prosecution are saying. Pick up on the points you disagree with and prepare. (Note:- you can 'object' but be sure you know what an objection means before you do it. An objection is usually at something that you deem irrelevant to the case or has been added to the original case against you. i.e. It was not in the prosecutions bundle. Tread warily here unless you are confident of your objection. If not, wait for your turn to cross-examine)

4. Prosecution will then finish and now it's your turn to cross-examine the witness on their evidence. You CANNOT make statements, you HAVE to ask questions. lf you don't know the difference you're going to piss the bench off ... not good.

5. You will then finish and prosecution will have the opportunity to try and clarify any points you brought up that discredit their case. Do NOT interrupt. lt is NOT your time to speak

6. Then it is vice-versa, you will be sworn in etc. and defence will ask you questions to substantiate your defence and attack the prosecutions case.(it can be a little more complicated if you are the single defendant but again we'll cover that later.

7. Prosecution will then cross-examine you

8. Defence will have the opportunity to cross-examine you to clarify any points brought up by prosecution when they were questioning you.

9. You then leave the witness box and return to your seat. You then have the opportunity to make a statement about your case (prosecution made theirs at the beginning).

10. The judge will then make their judgement.

Last edited by Smoking Hot (01-10-2012 10:29 pm)


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28-9-2012 11:37 am  #2


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

Being a LIP means you will be frowned upon by the prosecution and more often than not, the bench. lt's up to you to show that you are not wasting their time.

"The man who defends himself in court has a fool for a lawyer".


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

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28-9-2012 11:58 am  #3


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

The Blocked Dwarf wrote:

Being a LIP means you will be frowned upon by the prosecution and more often than not, the bench. lt's up to you to show that you are not wasting their time.

"The man who defends himself in court has a fool for a lawyer".

Perhaps but those that believe that are open to being taken unawares


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28-9-2012 12:49 pm  #4


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

... "A further problem is actually finding a lawyer who understands Condemnation Proceedings
and people have indeed found this difficult." ...


I have discovered these.

http://www.ctmltd.com
http://www.rogers-norton.co.uk/hmrc-customs-excise-vat-claims.htm

 

28-9-2012 1:03 pm  #5


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

shopperleighonsea wrote:

... "A further problem is actually finding a lawyer who understands Condemnation Proceedings
and people have indeed found this difficult." ...


I have discovered these.

http://www.ctmltd.com
http://www.rogers-norton.co.uk/hmrc-customs-excise-vat-claims.htm

Anyone on here used these? Do we have an idea of how much they charge?


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

It's not that l have something to hide ... it's l have nothing l want to show you.
     Thread Starter
 

28-9-2012 1:28 pm  #6


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

Most of those that I have searched out are tax/vat consultants and offer representation at condemnation proceedings. I have used such firms in the past during the course of my business and they charged a bloody sight more than solicitors!

SH
Re court procedure it is important I think to address the judge correctly.Is he in fact a judge or magistrate? If a magistrate he would be addressed as Sir or your worship.


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Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

29-9-2012 4:48 pm  #7


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

Smoking Hot wrote:

shopperleighonsea wrote:

... "A further problem is actually finding a lawyer who understands Condemnation Proceedings
and people have indeed found this difficult." ...


I have discovered these.

http://www.ctmltd.com
http://www.rogers-norton.co.uk/hmrc-customs-excise-vat-claims.htm

Anyone on here used these? Do we have an idea of how much they charge?

http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/index_en.htm

Or Solvit?

 

29-9-2012 5:12 pm  #8


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

Bloddy good find, Lets se what the prof says when he gets back.

Garry


START HERE, By answering these questions. http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=1526
Useful documents for download : http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=34
Goods been seized, Start here.  http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=78
SOT Thanks to TBD. http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=373
 

29-9-2012 5:52 pm  #9


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

For your information SH same procedure in Scotland except the Sheriff is addressed M'Lord, something I don't contribute to as if I was of any faith I would think there was but one Lord

However being agnostic I went with the flow and only called the Sheriff 'Jack' when I met him outside the court, I think my Irish confidence helped in a way.
Well  SURE JACK was his name.

Just something else comes to mind, If one gets a solicitor on legal Aid and win the case then unless the Judge awards costs to yourself the cost of the Legal Aid would be deducted from any reimbursment you may eventuall get fron the customs, this is in Scotland, so if the UKBA REFUND £1,000 AND YOUR LEGAL AID BILL WAS £999.95 you get 5p back from the solicitor unless you make a hardship application and its approved. But hard to prove Hardship if you want to replace it with smokes however may work for a seized car if one needs it to get to work, Cant speak for England mind you.

Last edited by George (29-9-2012 6:05 pm)

 

01-10-2012 10:23 pm  #10


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

N2Dgarry wrote:

Bloddy good find, Lets se what the prof says when he gets back.

Garry

Bobi has dealt with the EU legal side of things so he would be the one to address on these issues.


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02-10-2012 11:02 pm  #11


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1


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Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

05-10-2012 11:56 am  #12


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

found this one online they do assessments of cases online

http://taxdisputes.co.uk/smuggling/

also this one

http://www.clarkekiernan.com/hmrc.htm


these guys look like they have done it before  (grin)

(grin)http://www.ssf-law.co.uk/Revenue-and-Customs.shtml

Last edited by mrc (05-10-2012 12:38 pm)


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05-10-2012 7:34 pm  #13


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

Ive sent an email to these guys to see if they can represent me, http://www.ssf-law.co.uk/Revenue-and-Customs.shtml

£50 for consultation is not out reach for me, i'm willing to sacrifice it just to see if they are good as they say they are and hopefully to help others who also have nowhere to turn and also if they see my case as one that may be a sure win then, they would be able to get their fee from the other side, so i'll just have to see if i have a case.


i'll let everyone know how i get on if and when they contact me.


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05-10-2012 7:40 pm  #14


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

eezyrider wrote:

This one reads well, based in Oldham.

http://pearson-hinchliffe.co.uk/helping-cross-border-shoppers/

i'm also going to try these guys as they are local to me so might fare better, let the games begin  (grin)


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05-10-2012 8:15 pm  #15


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

could be worthwhile contacting a few of these solicitors,maybe they would like to sponsor the forum,or even offer some advice? (happy)


Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.
Better to live one day as a lion than a thousand days as a sheep'

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05-10-2012 8:32 pm  #16


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

i'm going to try these guys aswell as they are supposed to be good in getting legal aid in civil matters.

http://www.irwinmitchell.com

will try a few see if any are willing


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05-10-2012 8:44 pm  #17


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

also looking at this for people who are scared of the legal fee's from UKBA if your case is lost,

http://www.universallegal.co.uk/

interesting read


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05-10-2012 9:12 pm  #18


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

mrc wrote:

also looking at this for people who are scared of the legal fee's from UKBA if your case is lost,

http://www.universallegal.co.uk/

interesting read

No good so far in the insurance search. Tried BTE and ATE 


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

It's not that l have something to hide ... it's l have nothing l want to show you.
     Thread Starter
 

05-10-2012 9:39 pm  #19


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

Smoking Hot wrote:

mrc wrote:

also looking at this for people who are scared of the legal fee's from UKBA if your case is lost,

http://www.universallegal.co.uk/

interesting read

No good so far in the insurance search. Tried BTE and ATE 

If we are talking insurance there might be a possibility of some assistance through your home legal expenses cover.

Example

Home Legal Expenses

As a homeowner there can be many instances where legal support is a great comfort. We recommend legal expenses insurance as an important addition to your Home Insurance policy, It provides you and your family members legal assistance and costs in respect of consumer disputes, bodily injury, employment issues, identity theft, etc. It also assists in defending motor prosecutions, HM Revenue and Customs investigations and making compensation claims through foreign courts.


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

05-10-2012 10:52 pm  #20


Re: Your Day in Court Part 1

eezyrider wrote:

Smoking Hot wrote:

mrc wrote:

also looking at this for people who are scared of the legal fee's from UKBA if your case is lost,

http://www.universallegal.co.uk/

interesting read

No good so far in the insurance search. Tried BTE and ATE 

If we are talking insurance there might be a possibility of some assistance through your home legal expenses cover.

Example

Home Legal Expenses

As a homeowner there can be many instances where legal support is a great comfort. We recommend legal expenses insurance as an important addition to your Home Insurance policy, It provides you and your family members legal assistance and costs in respect of consumer disputes, bodily injury, employment issues, identity theft, etc. It also assists in defending motor prosecutions, HM Revenue and Customs investigations and making compensation claims through foreign courts.

Yes, l noted that before. Rang my insurance company and they haven't given me an answer yet. They can't seem to get their head round that Border Force is same as HMRC ... bah!


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

It's not that l have something to hide ... it's l have nothing l want to show you.
     Thread Starter
 

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