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14-3-2013 12:28 pm  #1


Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

You have to prepare ... no 'ifs, no 'buts' ... preparation is everything. You have to be organised, it's no use having all your paperwork in a big unmanagable lump. You won't be able to find anything and apart from looking a complete muppet as you scrabble through stacks of paper for something you want ... you'll piss off the judge. That is NOT good!

You also have to prepare a 'bundle' for the judge and prosecution. This contains all your evidence etc. lt does not need to be in a folder but it should be numbered from 1 to 54 for example. You need to have a record of this for yourself when in court as you will be referring to it. I would also go as far as highlighting the sections you are to refer to although l'd only do this in the judges bundle http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


However what l recommend for yourself is you need to get some A4 binders, preferably in different colours, and get the ones with the plastic see-through A4 pockets that you can slide your documents into. Divide the folders up into such as the blue one for the laws and regulations, the yellow one for letters etc from UKBA/Border Force and the red one for your arguments and evidence on your case.

Next get little colured sticky post-it notes. Again get different colours. You'll also need highlighters. pens and a notebook.

Now take all your case papers and divide them up for the relevant folders. Then go through your papers and highlight the sections you want to refer to with your highlighter pens.

By now you should have an idea on how to present your case. Write down in bullet points how you are going to proceed. Something along the lines of -

Questions for the officer when he's in the witness box -

(a) Discrepancies and irregularities in his statement, his actual notebook and so forth.
(for example - Officer Dibble, you state in your statement blah blah, is that correct?  (refer he judge to page 34 of the bundle)
Officer Dibble answers
You then ask - Officer Dibble, however you wrote in your notebook ... blah blah, is that correct? (refer the judge to page 28 of the bundle)
Officer Dibble answers
You then say- Officer Dibble, so you state one thing in your statement yet you write something entirely, is that correct?)


You need to know where his statement and copy of his notebook is! So in your bullet points add Officer Dibbles statement, blue folder, post-it note number 2, page 34 of bundle, Officer Dibbles copy of notebook, blue folder, postit-note number 4, page 28 of bundle.
lt's even easier to do if your postit notes are same colour as your folders. Blue postit notes for blue folder etc.

l also strongly advise that you have more than 1 copy of each. l suggest 3 as you then can pass 1 to Officer Dibble to look at and 1 for the judge to look at just in case the judge can't find it. (believe me it does happen more than you think). Sod the prosecution, if they've lost it ... tough!

Organisation is everything in court, without it you are going to look a complete muppet, piss the judge off and more importantly, the chances of winning your case will be greatly reduced.

Next part will be Part 3 on how to actually present your case. Again, this only our advice gained from experience ... we are not lawyers!

Oh, forgot to mention ... get yourself a McKenzie friend to help out. They can listen to the case and get the docs ready for you ... and prompt you. They cannot speak for you in court though. Pity that but m'thinks the legal fraternity are a bit afraid of them ... and their income from cases like these. We'd love to represent people in these cases 


 

Last edited by Smoking Hot (14-3-2013 6:46 pm)


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

When cross-border shopping, take your Statement of Truth etc and ALWAYS record the Border Force interviews and NEVER EVER sign their notebook ... Period!
 

14-3-2013 2:45 pm  #2


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

Nice presentation, but might I point out that you would preferably have a photocopy of officer Dibble's notebook as well as any typed transcript they may have sent you? Then you can check for discrepancies between the two. You can then make your own transcipt if necessary.


They lie on recordings; they lie on oath; their shysters lie on their behalf. Don't believe a word coming from the mouths (2 per person) of any UKBA officer.
 

14-3-2013 3:13 pm  #3


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

Sir Henry wrote:

Nice presentation, but might I point out that you would preferably have a photocopy of officer Dibble's notebook as well as any typed transcript they may have sent you? Then you can check for discrepancies between the two. You can then make your own transcipt if necessary.

Sorry l thought that was clear. You bring everything with you whether you think it relevant or not. As l said, l suggest 3 copies of docs that you want to produce in court. That would include copies of Dibble's signed statement and signed notebook.
 


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

When cross-border shopping, take your Statement of Truth etc and ALWAYS record the Border Force interviews and NEVER EVER sign their notebook ... Period!
     Thread Starter
 

14-3-2013 3:22 pm  #4


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

Great and really helpful post SH! 

Call me an 'anal' and forcibly medicate me for OCD but I tend to worry about just such details....hell I colour code my SOT folders!- afact that has earned me both praise and admiration from UKBA officers...comments like "You're VERY organised"...

I find it relaxs me, de-stresses me, if I KNOW I can put my hand on , say, the Bobi FOI at a moment's notice and I could imagine that following your system for court would also make me feel more confident in front of their Worships.

Not that I'm ever likely to face their Worships cos I follow the N2D plan and use the SOT to prevent a stop becoming an interview.
 


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

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14-3-2013 6:48 pm  #5


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

The Blocked Dwarf wrote:

Great and really helpful post SH! 

Call me an 'anal' and forcibly medicate me for OCD but I tend to worry about just such details....hell I colour code my SOT folders!- afact that has earned me both praise and admiration from UKBA officers...comments like "You're VERY organised"...

I find it relaxs me, de-stresses me, if I KNOW I can put my hand on , say, the Bobi FOI at a moment's notice and I could imagine that following your system for court would also make me feel more confident in front of their Worships.

Not that I'm ever likely to face their Worships cos I follow the N2D plan and use the SOT to prevent a stop becoming an interview.
 

Couldn't agree more TBD http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

 


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

When cross-border shopping, take your Statement of Truth etc and ALWAYS record the Border Force interviews and NEVER EVER sign their notebook ... Period!
     Thread Starter
 

05-1-2015 10:48 am  #6


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

I am to represent myself in court and have found this information really informative. I am pretty terrified but so aggreived at the injustice that I have no choice but to fight these guys.

I travel a lot which has rendered me guilty, I have been stopped and searched on numerous occasions since the seizure, which according to records have not been noted as nothing of interest was found. I would have thought this discounted their balance of probability theory re me always purchasing tobacco on every trip away.

The stop and searches have been conducted on 3 occasions when I have returned from holidays and trips with my teenage son. another time I was with my daughter.  I feel like Ma Baker as I come through passport control and clearly see my passport is flagging me up, and I feel I am being harrassed and victimised.

They also stated I can't afford my travels, which is a bit cheeky if u ask me. I could really do with advise/help or whatever information I can get to assist me. I have become anxious re travel and have been opting for UK trips for my son.

I have nothing to hide, I am not a criminal, but they are intimidating in their methods of stopping us. They find nothing but still speak to us like we are criminals in a very non customer service manner.

I had 4kg of tobacco seized which was for my own personal use, I have done nothing wrong or illegal. I can't afford a solicitor and feel I have suffered enough financial loss. I just hope I don't suffer a further injustice as an end result. 

Last edited by luvsturkey (05-1-2015 10:50 am)

 

05-1-2015 1:26 pm  #7


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

We are also regular travellers. When you are stopped and searched ask what powers are being used. It should be sec78 CEMA for the initial stop and sec163(a) for the search. If they conduct a search insist on a notebook record being opened but respectfully decline when asked to sign it. You will then have a record of what goods you were carrying if at a later date you need this evidence. We were told we would be stopped on every trip but have only been stopped once since. There's an element of luck about it.

As regards your defence I always recommend concentrating on the A-J questions as well as anything else you can think of. If you mention previous trips ensure you do not miss any out or add ''there may be others I cannot recall''. Not disclosing a previous trip is something they will pounce on.
Make sure your calcs are accurate and credible.

Good luck


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Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

05-1-2015 4:57 pm  #8


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

It is the argument/s (reason/s for seizure) of theirs that have to be countered by yourself. What are/is the reason/s exactly and can you recall or did you record what was said at the time?

 

05-1-2015 6:37 pm  #9


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

eezyrider wrote:

We are also regular travellers. When you are stopped and searched ask what powers are being used. It should be sec78 CEMA for the initial stop and sec163(a) for the search. If they conduct a search insist on a notebook record being opened but respectfully decline when asked to sign it. You will then have a record of what goods you were carrying if at a later date you need this evidence. We were told we would be stopped on every trip but have only been stopped once since. There's an element of luck about it.

As regards your defence I always recommend concentrating on the A-J questions as well as anything else you can think of. If you mention previous trips ensure you do not miss any out or add ''there may be others I cannot recall''. Not disclosing a previous trip is something they will pounce on.
Make sure your calcs are accurate and credible.

Good luck

Excellent post eezy.

Is there an obligation upon a UKBF officer searching a traveller's bags to repack them after the search?

JMK

Last edited by Johny_MK (05-1-2015 6:37 pm)

 

05-1-2015 9:17 pm  #10


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

luvsturkey wrote:

I travel a lot which has rendered me guilty, I have been stopped and searched on numerous occasions since the seizure, which according to records have not been noted as nothing of interest was found. I would have thought this discounted their balance of probability theory re me always purchasing tobacco on every trip away. 

 
I am afraid you are a little naive in your statement.
The fact that you have been stopped and no record was made acts in their favour NOT YOURS it does not discount any of their false assumptions.
Think about it ,if no record exists of any stops you cannot prove you were stopped, therefore they will say you were probably carrying the same amount of tobacco on every trip. You cannot prove them wrong.


Please ensure you do not divulge any  information which could identify you as Border Force may take your posts here and attempt to quote parts of them out of context in court in order to try to discredit you.

 
 

05-1-2015 9:40 pm  #11


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

Johny_MK wrote:

eezyrider wrote:

We are also regular travellers. When you are stopped and searched ask what powers are being used. It should be sec78 CEMA for the initial stop and sec163(a) for the search. If they conduct a search insist on a notebook record being opened but respectfully decline when asked to sign it. You will then have a record of what goods you were carrying if at a later date you need this evidence. We were told we would be stopped on every trip but have only been stopped once since. There's an element of luck about it.

As regards your defence I always recommend concentrating on the A-J questions as well as anything else you can think of. If you mention previous trips ensure you do not miss any out or add ''there may be others I cannot recall''. Not disclosing a previous trip is something they will pounce on.
Make sure your calcs are accurate and credible.

Good luck

Excellent post eezy.

Is there an obligation upon a UKBF officer searching a traveller's bags to repack them after the search?

JMK

In my experience they always start to repack the bags/vehicle but we prefer to do it ourselves and tell them so. I think the attitude differs from port to port. Hull for example tend to be quite laid back when searching the car and always offer to repack it and generally speaking are respectful.
 


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Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

05-1-2015 9:50 pm  #12


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

Incidentally it is written into BF operations manual that they should make a notebook entry for all stop/searches whether the results are ''negative'' or not. They rarely record negative stops though so you may have to insist.


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

05-1-2015 11:40 pm  #13


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

we also get stopped on a regular basis,i always ask for the ukbf id numbers,note down times dates ect of stops,at hull they are ok about this and will even on occasions give you a photocopy of any notes taken regardless of anything they find or not find/nothing of interest,being a regular traveller they take note of what i am carrying anyway so it works both ways.

sometimes when i haven't been stopped i have actually approached ukbf and declared what i have got,just to keep the records of purchases upto date in case i am ever accused of bringing in large amounts on every trip, always take ukbf id numbers/dates/times ect whenever you speak to them.

I always beleive a smoker will always take advantage of cheaper prices abroad so it makes sense to bring some back each time you travel,it would be hard to convince a court you didn't,so proving you did/didn't or how much is the hard part.

also you need to think why would someone who is a regular traveller bring back 6 months supply if they travelled every 2-3 months and put all their eggs in one basket? hence we travel regular and bring back enough to last till our next trip .

Last edited by warrior (05-1-2015 11:47 pm)


Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.
Better to live one day as a lion than a thousand days as a sheep'

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07-1-2015 10:50 am  #14


Re: Your Day in Court Part 2 ... Preparation

bordershopper wrote:

luvsturkey wrote:

I travel a lot which has rendered me guilty, I have been stopped and searched on numerous occasions since the seizure, which according to records have not been noted as nothing of interest was found. I would have thought this discounted their balance of probability theory re me always purchasing tobacco on every trip away. 

 
I am afraid you are a little naive in your statement.
The fact that you have been stopped and no record was made acts in their favour NOT YOURS it does not discount any of their false assumptions.
Think about it ,if no record exists of any stops you cannot prove you were stopped, therefore they will say you were probably carrying the same amount of tobacco on every trip. You cannot prove them wrong.

 
That is why I am on this forum for help, I didn't say it was in my favour but I have read on this forum that this can also be used for our advantage. This is a brief account of my story. I'm far from naive and think the lot of them are corrupt as hell.

 

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