Home of N2D.

You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



28-8-2012 8:45 pm  #1


Draft of new Statement of Truth

UK Border Force now rely on The Excise Goods (Movement, Holding and Duty Point) Regulations 2010 to satisfy themselves that your goods are for personal use or for a commercial purpose. These still contain the A-J questions that are used in all interviews. This being the case we have now incorporated the afore mentioned regulations into the statement of truth. Fighting fire with fire, so to speak.

lt is in draft form at the moment and so expect changes. When we are happy with it, we shall add it to the data bank. We shall also be adding comments here on various points of the SOT. Ask any questions you may have.

Statement of Truth

To whom it may concern,
                                  I, Mr CB Shopper, passport number  GBR123456789, travelled from Hull on PO ferries to Zeebrugge on 4/09/2012 (Booking ref 987654321). I returned to Hull via P/O Ferries 6/09/2012.

I shall record any interview by Border Force in full ( see attached FOI ref 19924, 9th March 2012) and Border Force may have a copy if so requested.

I purchased 5kg of tobacco EU Duty Paid (1kg Samson, 4kg Golden Virginia)

I bought these goods for my own personal use (incl gifts). I refer you to the following to show categorically that my goods are for personal use (incl gifts) and not for a commercial purpose.

I refer you to The Excise Goods (Holding, Movement and Duty Point) Regulations 2010,  Section 13, 3 (a) (b), 4  (a-j), 5 (b)

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (1) excise goods are held for a commercial purpose if they are held—

(a) by a person other than a private individual(P)


I am a private individual.

(b) by a private individual (“P), except in a case where the excise goods are for P’s own use and were acquired in, and transported to the United Kingdom from, another Member State by P.

For my own personal use (incl gifts),  bought in Adinkerke (see receipts) and transported by myself to UK (see  details above)

(4) For the purposes of determining whether excise goods referred to in the exception in paragraph (3)(b) are for P’s own use regard must be taken of—

(a) P’s reasons for having possession or control of those goods;

Personal use (incl gifts), bought and transported to UK by myself

(b) whether or not P is a revenue trader;

I am not a revenue trader

(c) P’s conduct, including P’s intended use of those goods or any refusal to disclose the intended use of those goods;

I respectively submit the following:-

4 kg Golden Virginia tobacco for myself.
1 kg Samson gift for my daughters birthday (28th Sept)

My conduct will be audio recorded throughout this excise interview


(d) the location of those goods;

Goods are in my personal luggage.

(e) the mode of transport used to convey those goods;

Carried personally by myself from P/O Ferry

(f) any document or other information relating to those goods;

Cash withdrawal receipts from personal bank account

ATM slip showing current balance of £1432.87 credit in my personal account

Receipts showing purchase of tobacco and ferry fare

Personal consumption rates of tobacco (ref BS-ISO-15592-Part-3 ) and savings compared with UK prices.


(g) the nature of those goods including the nature or condition of any package or container;

Goods were sealed and  not concealed; they were in my personal luggage carried by myself

(h) the quantity of those goods and, in particular, whether the quantity exceeds any of the following quantities—

•    10 litres of spirits,
•    20 litres of intermediate products (as defined in article 17(1) of Council Directive 92/83/EEC (1)
•    90 litres of wine (including a maximum of 60 litres of sparkling wine)
•    110 litres of beer,
•    800  cigarettes
•    400 cigarillos (cigars weighing no more than 3 grammes each),
•    200 cigars,
•    1 kg of any other tobacco products;

   

These are just guidelines and there are no limits for the amount one can bring in for personal use as stated in UKBA’s current ‘Notice 1, Travelling  to the UK’ and the ‘Tax information and Impact note, Protect IL1, HMRC’ where it states and l quote:-

Notice 1 ….“There are no limits on the amount of duty and/or tax paid alcohol and tobacco that you can bring into the UK as long as they are for your own use or gifts and are transported by you.

Tax information and Impact note, Protect IL1, HMRC“MILs (guidelines) are one of a number of factors used by UK Border Agency officials in determining whether tobacco products imported from the EU are for a person's own use or are for commercial use.  They are not allowances - someone bringing in less than the MILs to resell is still breaking the law, [i]and someone bringing in more than the MILs for their own use will be unaffected.  All that is changing are the guide quantities. [/i]

“……… law-abiding individual and householder travellers who genuinely import goods for their own use will not be affected

(i) Whether P personally financed the purchase of those goods;

Yes l did, see receipts of purchase and cash withdrawal slips from my personal bank account

(j) any other circumstance that appears to be relevant.

The 1kg of Samson is for my daughters birthday (28th Sept). l spend £100 on average for my daughters birthdays.

4kg of tobacco will last me approx 3-4  months and saves me a great deal of money when compared with UK prices (see attached Personal Consumption spreadsheet).

I  have travelled abroad 4 times in the last 12 months.

1. June 2012 Tenerife 2 weeks, 0.5kg of tobacco brought back. Stopped by Border Force Manchester Airport. Allowed to proceed.
2. April 2012 Greece 2 weeks. 4kg of tobacco brought back. Not stopped by Border Force East Midlands Airport.
3. Jan 2012 Hull P/O ferries to Zeebrugges 3 days. 4kg tobacco brought back. Not stopped by Border Force Hull
4. Sept 2011 Channel tunnel to France 1 day , 4kg of tobacco brought back. Stopped by Border Force Coquelles. Allowed to proceed.

5. Oct 2011 Bulgaria ... Flight cancelled. Did not make this trip though the booking may still be shown on Easyjets records.

I have about my person smoking materials and a lighter.  Should you require a me to roll a cigarette, l will do so.


5) For the purposes of the exception in paragraph (3)(b)—

(b)“own use"  includes use as a personal gift but does not include the transfer of the goods to another person for money or money’s worth (including any reimbursement of expenses incurred in connection with obtaining them).

I received no payment or reimbursement in money or money’s worth for this purchase of tobacco or cost of my travel whatsoever incurred in connection with obtaining them.

……………
l have now given all the information  you require re The Excise Goods (Holding, Movement and Duty Point) Regulations 2010, that shows my legally purchased EU duty paid tobacco are for personal use only and not held for a commercial purpose

Now please let me proceed with my legally purchased EU duty paid goods without any further let or hindrance.

Copy of this statement of truth to be retained by myself and another copy given to

UK Border Force Officer ………….                                         ID number ……….           

"I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true."

Signed …………………………         Print name………………….                date …………………


Statement of Truth (4 pages) received by

UK Border Force Officer  ……………………….                           (print name)

UK Border Force ID number ………….   

Signed  …………………………….

Date      …………………..


http://www.divshare.com/direct/19454009-74f.png



..............................

Note:- Download this FOI 19924 as it is becoming obvious that some Border Force officers are ignoring their own regs and illegally trying to stop you recording the interview. They should only try and dissuade you by telling you the interview will be written down and you have an opportunity to read it. However, this 'dissuade' can be lying to you outright by saying recordings are NOT allowed. Do NOT fall for it! lt is your RIGHT to record.

There is no excuse for this blatant ignoring of their own regs! For Border Force officers to do this shows how much they fear you recording them. Always record the interview. Use a dedicated good recorder that you switch on as soon as you disembark and make it a covert recording (hidden). When stopped by Border Force, tell them you are recording the interview and produce your phone etc. This is your overt recording (in plain view). lf an argument ensues over whether you can or can't record ... you have it on your covert recording. Show them this FOI http://www.divshare.com/download/19311640-9e1 and don't forget to get the officers id number. Say it out loud as you write it down so your recorder(s) can pick it up.

There's another valid point l'd like to make. ln the recent Mr Donny stop (http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=159) there was at least 3 Border Force officers, possibly 4. Did none of the Border Force officers know it was legal to record them? Sounds implausible doesn't it?

Last edited by Smoking Hot (09-1-2013 12:46 am)


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

When cross-border shopping, take your Statement of Truth etc and ALWAYS record the Border Force interviews and NEVER EVER sign their notebook ... Period!
 

28-8-2012 9:06 pm  #2


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

In a lot of the interviews, the Border Force Officer tries to make you guess your ingoings and outgoings so they can decide whether or not you can afford the purchase of your goods. This is sheer pants! No-one knows all the details of their finances ... not anyone l know of anyway.

The answer that we use and always have done is something like this  " l have no idea of the figures and l certainly won't guess. There is no need for me to know, it is what it is. All l can tell you is at the end of the month l always have money left. That is enough for me to know. l am not being evasive but l will not guess on any figures especially as l almost certainly would make mistakes as any normal person would."

We'll broach the subject of credit cards and loans at some point later.


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

When cross-border shopping, take your Statement of Truth etc and ALWAYS record the Border Force interviews and NEVER EVER sign their notebook ... Period!
     Thread Starter
 

29-8-2012 9:25 am  #3


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

At the risk of alienating everyone everywhere (a special talent I possess) I have to say that I think you over estimate the intelligence of not only the average UKBA Officer but the average shopper...at least those shoppers and BF'ers who wore polo shirts to school.

I have to ask myself the question 'Could my kidz or their mates cope with such a document or at least read it without moving their lips'? And the answer is 'no'. Okay one might justly claim that my kids are not the brightest lights on the Xmas tree and have difficulties reading anything more complex than 'See Jane Look Silly Spot' but SH, You and I have both read enough UKBA notebooks to know that the Education system nosedived around the time when they got rid of O levels.

K.I.S.S or "Keep It Simple Smokey" would be  my advice. The 'legalz' could all be referenced/printed at the end.

A rough example of what I think would be better (although I know you know far more about it than I could ever):

-------------------------

NOTICE TO UKBA

I AM RECORDING THIS AND ALL OTHER CONVERSATIONS WITH YOU AS IS MY LAWFUL RIGHT
(please see appendix 1 for extract from UKBA Guidance To Officers)

Statement Of Truth


I, Stabby McChav

of

222 Shania Twain Towers
InnitGuv St
Hull

UK Passport: ABC123

am returning from Adinkerke (B) today (see appendix 2 tickets /travel docs attached)

I have bought and am transporting myself: 20 Kg Cutters Choice (see appendix 3, Receipts)

-15 kg are for my own personal use, 5 kg is a present for my aged Crippled Mom like (see appendix 4 'GP Letter' attesting Mom is heavy smoker).

Last edited by The Blocked Dwarf (29-8-2012 9:31 am)


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

29-8-2012 10:15 am  #4


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

The Blocked Dwarf wrote:

At the risk of alienating everyone everywhere (a special talent I possess) I have to say that I think you over estimate the intelligence of not only the average UKBA Officer but the average shopper...at least those shoppers and BF'ers who wore polo shirts to school.

I have to ask myself the question 'Could my kidz or their mates cope with such a document or at least read it without moving their lips'? And the answer is 'no'. Okay one might justly claim that my kids are not the brightest lights on the Xmas tree and have difficulties reading anything more complex than 'See Jane Look Silly Spot' but SH, You and I have both read enough UKBA notebooks to know that the Education system nosedived around the time when they got rid of O levels.

K.I.S.S or "Keep It Simple Smokey" would be  my advice. The 'legalz' could all be referenced/printed at the end.

A rough example of what I think would be better (although I know you know far more about it than I could ever):

-------------------------

NOTICE TO UKBA

I AM RECORDING THIS AND ALL OTHER CONVERSATIONS WITH YOU AS IS MY LAWFUL RIGHT
(please see appendix 1 for extract from UKBA Guidance To Officers)

Statement Of Truth


I, Stabby McChav

of

222 Shania Twain Towers
InnitGuv St
Hull

UK Passport: ABC123

am returning from Adinkerke (B) today (see appendix 2 tickets /travel docs attached)

I have bought and am transporting myself: 20 Kg Cutters Choice (see appendix 3, Receipts)

-15 kg are for my own personal use, 5 kg is a present for my aged Crippled Mom like (see appendix 4 'GP Letter' attesting Mom is heavy smoker).

l understand your point entirely. However, it is not written entirely for the Border Officer. Should said Border Officer still seize your goods and it ends up in court then the magistrates or judge will then be reading it. lt would certainly question the seizure on grounds of being unreasonable. That being the case, Border Force would have extreme difficulty in getting a 144 certificate which would mean that you can go for full compensation and not just the original cost of the goods. We like to think ahead.  (grin)

All anyone has to do is  simply put in their personal details including the travel details ... and then answer the A-J's  (which we've already given examples of). Doesn't matter if the shopper doesn't comprehend the rest of it ... it's only their answers that matter.


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

When cross-border shopping, take your Statement of Truth etc and ALWAYS record the Border Force interviews and NEVER EVER sign their notebook ... Period!
     Thread Starter
 

29-8-2012 10:20 am  #5


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Please note according to International Standards Organization (ISO) standard number 15592 part 3 you get 66.67 cigarettes (thick) per 50gr pouch or 125 thin ones . Depending on your rolling style/habits any figure between the two is acceptable. Most continental packs contain ISO 15592/3 information. I have a standard 'Bull Brand' rolling machine and got 61 cigarettes out the last pouch of Amber Leaf, this is because my rollers are old and knackered like me and roll oversize cigs, so do the experiment and count how many you get out of your machine.
I have only met one HMRC/UKBA officer who had even heard of 15592/3 and several who couldn't do the  maths when challenged in court.
Here is the challenge if a cigarette contains 0.75grammes of tobacco how many do you get from a 50gramme pouch.????

bobi

bobi

 

29-8-2012 10:30 am  #6


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Bobi wrote:

Please note according to International Standards Organization (ISO) standard number 15592 part 3 you get 66.67 cigarettes (thick) per 50gr pouch or 125 thin ones . Depending on your rolling style/habits any figure between the two is acceptable. Most continental packs contain ISO 15592/3 information. I have a standard 'Bull Brand' rolling machine and got 61 cigarettes out the last pouch of Amber Leaf, this is because my rollers are old and knackered like me and roll oversize cigs, so do the experiment and count how many you get out of your machine.
I have only met one HMRC/UKBA officer who had even heard of 15592/3 and several who couldn't do the  maths when challenged in court.
Here is the challenge if a cigarette contains 0.75grammes of tobacco how many do you get from a 50gramme pouch.????

bobi

l'd be sorely tempted to do the experiment on rolling cigarettes during the interview (despite already knowing the answer)  (grin) (grin) (grin)

ps As to your challenge  ... it's devilishly difficult! (happy)

Last edited by Smoking Hot (29-8-2012 10:33 am)


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

When cross-border shopping, take your Statement of Truth etc and ALWAYS record the Border Force interviews and NEVER EVER sign their notebook ... Period!
     Thread Starter
 

29-8-2012 10:57 am  #7


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Smoking Hot wrote:

The Blocked Dwarf wrote:

At the risk of alienating everyone everywhere (a special talent I possess) I have to say that I think you over estimate the intelligence of not only the average UKBA Officer but the average shopper...at least those shoppers and BF'ers who wore polo shirts to school.

I have to ask myself the question 'Could my kidz or their mates cope with such a document or at least read it without moving their lips'? And the answer is 'no'. Okay one might justly claim that my kids are not the brightest lights on the Xmas tree and have difficulties reading anything more complex than 'See Jane Look Silly Spot' but SH, You and I have both read enough UKBA notebooks to know that the Education system nosedived around the time when they got rid of O levels.

K.I.S.S or "Keep It Simple Smokey" would be  my advice. The 'legalz' could all be referenced/printed at the end.

A rough example of what I think would be better (although I know you know far more about it than I could ever):

-------------------------

NOTICE TO UKBA

I AM RECORDING THIS AND ALL OTHER CONVERSATIONS WITH YOU AS IS MY LAWFUL RIGHT
(please see appendix 1 for extract from UKBA Guidance To Officers)

Statement Of Truth


I, Stabby McChav

of

222 Shania Twain Towers
InnitGuv St
Hull

UK Passport: ABC123

am returning from Adinkerke (B) today (see appendix 2 tickets /travel docs attached)

I have bought and am transporting myself: 20 Kg Cutters Choice (see appendix 3, Receipts)

-15 kg are for my own personal use, 5 kg is a present for my aged Crippled Mom like (see appendix 4 'GP Letter' attesting Mom is heavy smoker).

l understand your point entirely. However, it is not written entirely for the Border Officer. Should said Border Officer still seize your goods and it ends up in court then the magistrates or judge will then be reading it. lt would certainly question the seizure on grounds of being unreasonable. That being the case, Border Force would have extreme difficulty in getting a 144 certificate which would mean that you can go for full compensation and not just the original cost of the goods. We like to think ahead.  (grin)

All anyone has to do is  simply put in their personal details including the travel details ... and then answer the A-J's  (which we've already given examples of). Doesn't matter if the shopper doesn't comprehend the rest of it ... it's only their answers that matter.

l think it's great SH and anyone having problems with filling it in could just ask their mum to help lol


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

29-8-2012 2:24 pm  #8


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

I keep a trip log which is a simple table listing all trips going back,I think over 2 years.It states date of trip,purpose ie holiday or shopping etc, how travelled ie flight,car and ferry or motorbike and ferry and where from/to. I also have on my trip log a full account of excise goods purchases and if we were stopped and checked.
This I can easily fill in in a couple of minutes. It also lists my purchases for a given 12 month period and my usage in same period, obviously in arrears to current trip.The info on this I feel is quite comprehensive.
I then have another sheet for calculations of usage which also includes amount purchased for gifts. Pretty much as per your template.The calc sheet takes longer to fill in and there is room for error

I do have an sot as well but I admit, containing less info than your template.

I have to say I think there could be a trap emerging here with the revised sot inasmuch as it is going against the principles of interview. When you are interviewed answer with a yes or no where possible and volunteer no further info. By volunteering info on the sot you are leaving the interviewer something to pick at, for example your detailed ref to your 1kg gift. My gift purchases are not specific and give to who and when I want.

Ok I see your point about the magistrates and I'm sure you're right.

My sot is impersonal apart from having my name on it(not even passport no.) but does have my address.
I make reference to my current journey by saying "see trip log". I make ref to usage by saying "see attached sheet"

I think the sot would be better if it followed a standard format for every trip. You would just need to add your name date and signature.

I now wait for the cannonballs (nervous)


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

29-8-2012 9:35 pm  #9


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

eezyrider wrote:

I keep a trip log which is a simple table listing all trips going back,I think over 2 years.It states date of trip,purpose ie holiday or shopping etc, how travelled ie flight,car and ferry or motorbike and ferry and where from/to. I also have on my trip log a full account of excise goods purchases and if we were stopped and checked.
This I can easily fill in in a couple of minutes. It also lists my purchases for a given 12 month period and my usage in same period, obviously in arrears to current trip.The info on this I feel is quite comprehensive.
I then have another sheet for calculations of usage which also includes amount purchased for gifts. Pretty much as per your template.The calc sheet takes longer to fill in and there is room for error

I do have an sot as well but I admit, containing less info than your template.

I have to say I think there could be a trap emerging here with the revised sot inasmuch as it is going against the principles of interview. When you are interviewed answer with a yes or no where possible and volunteer no further info. By volunteering info on the sot you are leaving the interviewer something to pick at, for example your detailed ref to your 1kg gift. My gift purchases are not specific and give to who and when I want.

Ok I see your point about the magistrates and I'm sure you're right.

My sot is impersonal apart from having my name on it(not even passport no.) but does have my address.
I make reference to my current journey by saying "see trip log". I make ref to usage by saying "see attached sheet"

I think the sot would be better if it followed a standard format for every trip. You would just need to add your name date and signature.

I now wait for the cannonballs (nervous)

Think your reading too much into it eezy. You give just as much data in your attached sheets. I dont see great detail in the 1kg for his daughter either. l view it from other side that the officer has just had all his questions answered! lol


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

30-8-2012 5:39 am  #10


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Marlboro wrote:

l think it's great SH and anyone having problems with filling it in could just ask their mum to help lol

Well just to be real clear I guess I should add that I not only like the new SOT but will no doubt be using it, even in its present rough draft state, next week (assuming SH has no objections of course).

My problem with the new SOT is I dislike the idea of sending people into 'battle' clutching something they don't, fully, understand and worst still something that someone else may have helped them fill in.

That way 'Magic Silver Bullet' Syndrome lies.

Let me explain. The SOT is a hella powerful weapon but it requires understanding to use properly. If the SOT is too 'complex' for the average shopper then it will  very quickly become "Download this-fill in the blanks and then the UKBA cannot nick your stuff no matter what...innit'. You'll then find it all over the web and being peddled as "ALL YOU GOTTA DO IS WAVE THIS MAGIC BIT OF PAPER THEN THEY CANT STOP YOU!!!111"

I concede SH's point about it also being written with the courts in mind and he's right. The 'fight' against the near automatic issuing of Cert.s.144's is an important one (because that way change will come- the more it costs the UKBA the more...). But I do question if it is really something the average Xborder shopper need concern himself with. Surely that lies far more in the remit of the N2D activista wing?


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

30-8-2012 8:09 am  #11


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Marlboro wrote:

eezyrider wrote:

I keep a trip log which is a simple table listing all trips going back,I think over 2 years.It states date of trip,purpose ie holiday or shopping etc, how travelled ie flight,car and ferry or motorbike and ferry and where from/to. I also have on my trip log a full account of excise goods purchases and if we were stopped and checked.
This I can easily fill in in a couple of minutes. It also lists my purchases for a given 12 month period and my usage in same period, obviously in arrears to current trip.The info on this I feel is quite comprehensive.
I then have another sheet for calculations of usage which also includes amount purchased for gifts. Pretty much as per your template.The calc sheet takes longer to fill in and there is room for error

I do have an sot as well but I admit, containing less info than your template.

I have to say I think there could be a trap emerging here with the revised sot inasmuch as it is going against the principles of interview. When you are interviewed answer with a yes or no where possible and volunteer no further info. By volunteering info on the sot you are leaving the interviewer something to pick at, for example your detailed ref to your 1kg gift. My gift purchases are not specific and give to who and when I want.

Ok I see your point about the magistrates and I'm sure you're right.

My sot is impersonal apart from having my name on it(not even passport no.) but does have my address.
I make reference to my current journey by saying "see trip log". I make ref to usage by saying "see attached sheet"

I think the sot would be better if it followed a standard format for every trip. You would just need to add your name date and signature.

I now wait for the cannonballs (nervous)

Think your reading too much into it eezy. You give just as much data in your attached sheets. I dont see great detail in the 1kg for his daughter either. l view it from other side that the officer has just had all his questions answered! lol

Yep ok 'M'. I'm paranoid about giving big brother any info they don't need in order to add to their database which probably already includes the colour of the bog paper I use!


My real point though is that is still a lot of writing to do on the day after your shopping and there is room for error. You need to fill in usage calcs by hand, trip log with purchases and so on and the sot.If the sot comes in pre-printed format then there is a few holes that will have to be filled in by hand. Will it carry the same presentation value or is some jobsworth gonna say 'can't read your writing so now answer my questions'. If it's totally pre-filled in before the trip it's no longer  a true statement of truth because it will have been written before the purchase.
My main point really was if the sot could be an impersonal document which simply had to have name date and signature added in the presence of UKBF it would be easier all round but of course we'd have to rely on SH for his opinion as to whether it would carry the weight eg

To whom it may conern

I (regularly) travel abroad for shopping trips/short breaks/holidays.see attached trip log

I am carrying excise goods which I have purchased in the EU as is my right under EU directive *****
See my attached trip log for details
I am not a revenue trader and the goods are for my own personal use and for gifts. They are not held for a commercial purpose and I will not and have not received any recompense in cash or kind.

This is not the full thing of course just an example.The legal bits would need to be added in as per SH's sot above but you would simply delete above what is not appropriate then print name and sign and date. The whole thing could be printed off before the journey because it is not specific to a particular journey.

Would it work SH?


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

30-8-2012 10:40 am  #12


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

We are both on the same page Eezy but some clarification is needed.

Firstly, the statement of truth SHOULD be printed off BEFORE you travel. lt becomes a statement of truth WHEN it is signed and this should be done in front of the officer if you are stopped. Without your signature it is not a statement of truth.

lnvariably we all know our travel details and the amount of tobacco products we intend to purchase. If for whatever reason the amount you purchase changes, simply cross the amount out on your statement of truth and hand write the new amount in and scrawl your initials. On your consumption spreadsheet simply hand write a line beneath it saying for example " Plus 1kg of GV" or indeed "Less 1 kg of GV" and then sign and date it. No need to change the calculations as the added line you've put in does that 'legally' for you. Saying that, l'll amend the statement of truth to take account of this ... see l told you it was a draft  (grin).

You'll note that the previous trips that l put in are not 'detailed' and just the month. l see no need to go to the trouble of doing that as Border Force say their E-borders contains all this data so let them do it if they want ( in reality, l've found (as have others) that Border Forces data in reality is complete pants and is not to be relied on)

Speaking of reality, l've used a statement of truth when stopped by Border Force and so has Blocked Dwarf. There is no escaping the fact that they hate it! They love giving out paperwork but are not prepared to receive it! In my case they visibly didn't know what to do and it ended up with them calling in their superior who also didn't know what to do. They even refused to sign a receipt for the copy l gave them! Strange isn't it that they want you to sign everything of theirs!

Thanks for your input, it's really appreciated ... and no doubt by the other members of the forum too.


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

When cross-border shopping, take your Statement of Truth etc and ALWAYS record the Border Force interviews and NEVER EVER sign their notebook ... Period!
     Thread Starter
 

30-8-2012 11:30 am  #13


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Smoking Hot wrote:

Speaking of reality, l've used a statement of truth when stopped by Border Force and so has Blocked Dwarf. There is no escaping the fact that they hate it! .

Yep and I won't leave home without it.

I have carried one on all my baccy trips since SH first came up with the idea. I recognised their value the minute I read one and noticed that the UKBA use them themselves as 'evidence' before the tribunals.

I have presented one to the BFers on, I think, 3 occasions now and each time have been complimented by them upon its completeness/sheer mindnumbing analness....or as the officer put it last time " Uhm you're uhm very...uhm precise".

I use the standard SOT which is on N2d.me -albeit with my own first couple of paragraphs/first page- but the rest of it is still 24 carat undiluted Smokey. I'm heading back to the UK in about a week or so's time and just before I leave I'll print off a copy of the latest SOT. I tend to fill them in by hand then on the ferry, having counted and recounted the amount of baccy bought and then I add in the boarding cards/till receipts etc in the appropriate plastic A4 wallets.


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

30-8-2012 11:49 am  #14


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

The Blocked Dwarf wrote:

Smoking Hot wrote:

Speaking of reality, l've used a statement of truth when stopped by Border Force and so has Blocked Dwarf. There is no escaping the fact that they hate it! .

Yep and I won't leave home without it.

I have carried one on all my baccy trips since SH first came up with the idea. I recognised their value the minute I read one and noticed that the UKBA use them themselves as 'evidence' before the tribunals.

I have presented one to the BFers on, I think, 3 occasions now and each time have been complimented by them upon its completeness/sheer mindnumbing analness....or as the officer put it last time " Uhm you're uhm very...uhm precise".

I use the standard SOT which is on N2d.me -albeit with my own first couple of paragraphs/first page- but the rest of it is still 24 carat undiluted Smokey. I'm heading back to the UK in about a week or so's time and just before I leave I'll print off a copy of the latest SOT. I tend to fill them in by hand then on the ferry, having counted and recounted the amount of baccy bought and then I add in the boarding cards/till receipts etc in the appropriate plastic A4 wallets.

Were you nervous first time you used it BD? lve seen the vids of SH and Zaphod and they are so cool about it all. l get all fidgety and know l blush when faced with authority but lve always been like that from being a young girl. What l dont understand is why SH and Zaphod didnt use a statement thingy?


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

30-8-2012 2:16 pm  #15


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

"What l dont understand is why SH and Zaphod didnt use a statement thingy? "

Marlboro
I think you'll find that the methods used to thwart UKBF have changed rapidly over a short period of time mainly thanks to SH and Zaphod's experiences.

SH
If as you say-and I don't doubt you for a minute-the SOT is acceptable if written out before the journey, then that solves my problem. I was working on the theory as I said, that if the SOT was not 'detailed' after the purchase then it would not be a true SOT.

As regards my trip log containing detailed info of previous trips, we often see "what you've brought now is what you must have brought on previous trips". It stands to reason method of travel will have a bearing on this. In my case last year once by plane and once by motorbike and several times by car. You can't carry much on a motorbike.But my trip log adds up to a years supply at the stated usage. I feel it backs up why I'm carrying the quantity I am. Likewise a shopper may be on a carshare trip where they can carry what they like or on a coach daytrip where they are likely to get left at the port if they have more than the guidelines when asked.

Your thoughts please.......


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

30-8-2012 11:59 pm  #16


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

eezyrider wrote:

"What l dont understand is why SH and Zaphod didnt use a statement thingy? "

Marlboro
I think you'll find that the methods used to thwart UKBF have changed rapidly over a short period of time mainly thanks to SH and Zaphod's experiences.

SH
If as you say-and I don't doubt you for a minute-the SOT is acceptable if written out before the journey, then that solves my problem. I was working on the theory as I said, that if the SOT was not 'detailed' after the purchase then it would not be a true SOT.

As regards my trip log containing detailed info of previous trips, we often see "what you've brought now is what you must have brought on previous trips". It stands to reason method of travel will have a bearing on this. In my case last year once by plane and once by motorbike and several times by car. You can't carry much on a motorbike.But my trip log adds up to a years supply at the stated usage. I feel it backs up why I'm carrying the quantity I am. Likewise a shopper may be on a carshare trip where they can carry what they like or on a coach daytrip where they are likely to get left at the port if they have more than the guidelines when asked.

Your thoughts please.......

We intentionally didn't use statement of truths as we wanted to show the way interviews worked. We now do take statement of truths on all our trips as there is no longer any point in not doing so. We achieved what we set out to do and moved on.

Yes, l understand what you were thinking but the statement of truth is detailed and signing it does make it valid. Think of it as a contract ... it means nothing until signed.

We also carry records of our previous trips for, as you say, Customs/Border Force use your previous trips as reasons to seize if they get the opportunity. they say that ALL your previous trips were for bringing in tobacco etc.

What's really underhand by them is that if they stop you and you are carrying no excise goods ... they do not record it on their database! It's actually in their procedures not to do so. l personally know this because l made Hull UKBA record it, l actually demanded it from them. Then l sent in a Subject Access Request for myself and l now have it in black and white regarding the Hull incident. lt says and l quote "Nothing of interest to Customs"  (grin). l've done this a few times now ... l make them record it. The tactic of using previous trips as an excuse for Customs to seize cannot be used against me.

l now put in an SAR every year. lt costs £10 but l feel it's well worth it. If you've not done one for yourself, l strongly advise you to do so.

Going back to Customs not recording any stops that reveal no excise goods. Customs may think they are very clever at doing this but to me it leaves a gaping hole and somewhat of an own goal.

lf you return to the UK with your tobacco etc and are NOT stopped by Customs, what is there to prevent you saying that you WERE stopped but had no tobacco etc on you? Over the 20 years l've been bringing in my own smokes there has been many occasions when l have been stopped but was carrying no tobacco.

Invariably it went like something like this:-

Customs ... "Have you brought back any tobacco or cigarettes?"

Me ... "No"

Customs ... "Can you open your bags please sir?"

Me " Yes"

Opens bags, Customs look in them, find nothing and then say " Thank you" and you're on your way. No asking for ID off you or anything like that ... it's over in a couple of mins.

There's no record that Customs stopped me but it works the other way too ... there's no record that they didn't stop me either!


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

When cross-border shopping, take your Statement of Truth etc and ALWAYS record the Border Force interviews and NEVER EVER sign their notebook ... Period!
     Thread Starter
 

31-8-2012 4:04 am  #17


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Marlboro wrote:

Were you nervous first time you used it BD? lve seen the vids of SH and Zaphod and they are so cool about it all. l get all fidgety and know l blush when faced with authority but lve always been like that from being a young girl

"nervous" doesn't even begin to describe it. I'm a six-foot-shaved headed-bad toothed former criminal with a record for armed robbery and attempted murder BUT the first time I confronted the UKBA the 'N2D Way' I was a stuttering shaking wreck. I literally threw the SOT at the officers and stammered in my 'petulant teenager' voice "I'm recording this and you can't stop me!'.

Partly this was due to me having been raised to be subservient and polite to Uniformed Authority -you can take a boy out of the Middle Class etc-, partly because I tend to go to pieces, to start with, in any formal interview situation (although after I've 'dechoked' I get 'lethal' in interviews) and partly because I simply can't afford to lose even a few kilos of tobacco and still put food on the table for me and mine.

These days though I almost relish getting stopped. I don't go out of my way to get stopped because I'd still rather not risk tobacco I can't afford to lose but being prepared is the key. I K N O W my SOT is world class in its comprehensiveness and that I have all the evidence with me I need.


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

31-8-2012 6:40 am  #18


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Interesting debate, and I am firmly in the '100% overkill' camp; I have now updated my SOT and it is six pages in length, contains  both the original SOT and the new add-on, combined into one, with several changes which make it more personal to me.  I take the view that if I throw everything at them then they either have to do a very detailed interview or else smile politely and let me proceed, and as they would be picking me out as a random stop, not an intelligence-led operation, I think it's a fair bet that they will go with option A.  I may find out at the end of September on my next trip, but (fingers crossed) not been stopped for a little over two years now, so, so far, not had to use my SOT 'in the field' as it were.
The main changes I have made are heading it as a 'Statement of compliance with EU/thingy/thingy & Excise Goods blah-de-blah' as I don't want to confuse UKBF officers with complex words like 'truth', and it is compliance with the law that counts, truth being an optional extra.  I follow the heading with the following statement in big letters, in bold and underlined : Please Note:  All interviews will be audio and/or video recorded for the safety and security of the UKBF officers involved, as advised by UKBF and Home Office under Freedom of Information Request 19924 and UKBF Guidance issued to officers for conducting “A-j  or “1-10  interviews to establish possible commerciality (copies of both carried by me).  After all, local councils and all public authorities are always harping on about how their CCTV cameras and telephone recordings are done for 'our safety' or 'our customers security', so surely it works both ways?
And on the subject of working both ways, you are 100% correct about UKBF not recording previous stops if they didn't find what they wanted.  I have often used the opening gambit when stopped and asked about previous travel (usually question number two, right after 'is this lot all for you, then?' - and I did once travel in a coach party where one idiot answered 'no, I don't smoke, I'm taking it to my mates in the pub so I can sell it to them' and, failing to reward his refreshing honesty, the officer seized the lot!) my reply would be to tell them all the places I had been, Ireland, USA, whatever, plus every trip to Europe, and inform them that I had been stopped on most of these trips and that I had been found not to be carrying ANY tobacco products, and would he/she kindly check their data-base to confirm this?  This usually resulted in me being waved through.
Finally, I can relate with Herr Dwarf; I too am a fraction under six foot, alternate between shaven-headed and a short mohican, still in my fifties have powerful gym-produced muscles to go with my ever-expanding beer-gut, and am pretty much solid tattoos from the neck down, including the large club crest and 'We are the famous Millwall' on one arm and the 49th Infantry Division crest on the other, dotted line and scissors on the wrist, the complete set of misspent youth in pictures (even got 'Down with intelligence, Long live death' on my chest!), got the full set of 'previous' to go with it (but here Herr Dwarf and I part company; my highest rated conviction was for 'Providing aid and support for a terrorist organisation' which, in my case, was moving money between various bank accounts for the UDA in the late 80's) but put me in front of a police officer, UKBF, anyone in uniform and position of authority, and I too start to shake, do the 'rabbit faced by a weasel' thing and mumble and slur my words. Takes a good ten minutes before I get into my swing.

 

31-8-2012 7:20 am  #19


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

This debate so far has brought about a better understanding of why certain procedures should be followed. I hope others have gained from it too.

I shall be travelling back from the French/Spanish border next week to Dover-ever more confident, but not cocky!

Forgot to mention,France has just reduced fuel tax and Total have agreed to match the cut. On the trip I've been paying around €1-65 for sp95. Yesterday at the local supermarket it had come down to €1-4875, which equates to about £1-18. And of course diesel is even cheaper.

Last edited by eezyrider (31-8-2012 7:33 am)


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

04-9-2012 8:57 pm  #20


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

I used this SOT, with a few ammendments, yesterday, I did`nt get the chance to try it out, I like it though, I will be putting another one together soon, with a few more ammendments, I will post my version on here when I get round to it, and look forward to comments, advice, etc!

 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum

Disclaimer:- This forum is an open forum, and anyone can post their thoughts here (within reason). Therefore the views expressed here are those of individuals and not necessarily those of Nothing 2 Declare. We try to allow as much freedom of speech as possible, including views that some may find objectionable. This includes the views of UKBA, Border Force, HMRC, legitimate cross-border shoppers, non-legitimate importers, general public and anyone else that wishes to post.
Regarding ourselves, we categorically do not condone smuggling and neither do we condone the current tactics used against legitimate cross-border shoppers by UKBA/Border Force and HMRC. The current tactics benefit both Customs and smugglers alike.
Although some people use real names, there is no guarantee that they are who they say they are; it is impossible for us to verify identities of all members.