Home of N2D.

You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



04-9-2012 11:13 pm  #21


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

I have recently been sent a letter from the Post Seizure Unit which details the 'doubts' of the seizing officer about my reluctance to state how many cigs I roll from a 50 gram pouch! Why? Don't they know? Or is it just another ploy to imply - as they often do - that I'm not actually a smoker?

Do you drink coffee? How may cups do you get from a jar/packet? Don't know? perhaps you don't actually drink coffee ...

As for the SOT it may be complex, but it is a legal statement that may have to be quoted in court and needs to be thorough and all inclusive. The only objection I have to the one in the OP is that it is too detailed and will often not cover the true facts/circumstances of an individual traveller.


They lie on recordings; they lie on oath; their shysters lie on their behalf. Don't believe a word coming from the mouths (2 per person) of any UKBA officer.
 

06-9-2012 10:06 pm  #22


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Sir Henry wrote:

I have recently been sent a letter from the Post Seizure Unit which details the 'doubts' of the seizing officer about my reluctance to state how many cigs I roll from a 50 gram pouch! Why? Don't they know? Or is it just another ploy to imply - as they often do - that I'm not actually a smoker?

Do you drink coffee? How may cups do you get from a jar/packet? Don't know? perhaps you don't actually drink coffee ...

As for the SOT it may be complex, but it is a legal statement that may have to be quoted in court and needs to be thorough and all inclusive. The only objection I have to the one in the OP is that it is too detailed and will often not cover the true facts/circumstances of an individual traveller.

Answer the A-J's in the Statement of Truth as you see fit.  You go with what feels right for you. There will never be a Statement of Truth that fits all ... that would be an impossibility as each travellers circumstances are different. So, delete all the answers l put into the example of a Statement of Truth and put in your own answers.  (grin)


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

It's not that l have something to hide ... it's l have nothing l want to show you.
     Thread Starter
 

07-9-2012 10:50 am  #23


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Trip log.
Unfortunately can't reproduce it here but 6 columns with the following headings

Date
Destination
Method of trav (eg by car, coach, flight)
Purpose   (eg shopping, holiday, family visit etc)
Purchases
Total this year

At the bottom you can write in expected usage for the year and your running total would add up to this amount


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

07-9-2012 11:37 am  #24


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

eezyrider wrote:

Trip log.
Unfortunately can't reproduce it here but 6 columns with the following headings

Date
Destination
Method of trav (eg by car, coach, flight)
Purpose   (eg shopping, holiday, family visit etc)
Purchases
Total this year

At the bottom you can write in expected usage for the year and your running total would add up to this amount

I think it comes down to personal pref in the end. l'll stick with what N2D suggest purely cos they have so much experience with Customs. l do like the listing of the A-J's cos l doubt magistrates know what they are. Customs just quoute the regulation to them and the guidelines bit. l doubt magistrates have the full regulations to hand but N2D give them the complete relevant Sect 13 bit. That to me is thinking ahead and l like that.


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

18-9-2012 11:17 am  #25


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Extracted from compactlaw.co.uk

"I believe that the facts stated in this (name the document and the date of the document) are true."

Does one need to include this (word for word) within a sot, or will this suffice?

I shopperleighonsea, am compliant with all acts and directives (those relevant) of the European Union and United Kingdom, in particular, 2008/118/EC  Chapter V, Section 1, Article 32 manifested through The Excise Goods (Holding, Movement and Duty Point) Regulations 2010, notably Section 13, sub-sections 3 (a) (b), 4 (a-j) and 5 (b).
I am a private individual. The excise goods are for my own use and were acquired in, and transported to the United Kingdom from other Member States by myself. I am not a revenue trader. The conduct of mine and yours I am recording. The goods are  located in luggage of mine and have been conveyed by coach, ferry and self-propulsion by myself. I have receipts for the goods as well statements of affordability and intent/truth. The goods I have carried personally and are intact and sealed. As known and publicised by H.M.R.C/U.K.B.A/U.K.B.F, quantities for own use are unlimited. These have been personally financed with there being no intention of transfer to another person for moneys worth. There are no other circumstances relevant.
I, therefore, do not consent to an interview, search or any questioning and will continue homewards with these goods of mine.

 

18-9-2012 11:36 am  #26


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

shopperleighonsea wrote:

transfer to another person for moneys worth.

Purely on a point of wording I'd say that maybe the above sentence should read something like this: "not for any form of compensation nor remittance, tangible or intangible". Money or "money's worth" doesn't quite cover the whole concept of 'commerciality'...as the UKBA see it.

"and will continue homewards with these goods of mine." might be better as " it is my intent to continue homewards..."




...just saying.


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

18-9-2012 2:46 pm  #27


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

I agree that it is daunting for the inexperienced (moi) and, as yet, there aren't any templates for, say, advanced, beginners and intermediate.
As circumstances and interpretations vary, I accept that this would be difficult.
The question is that, if, for example SH, Zaphod or yourself were returning to these shores, would you feel confident enough
with this version of mine?

 

18-9-2012 8:32 pm  #28


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

shopperleighonsea wrote:

I agree that it is daunting for the inexperienced (moi) and, as yet, there aren't any templates for, say, advanced, beginners and intermediate.
As circumstances and interpretations vary, I accept that this would be difficult.
The question is that, if, for example SH, Zaphod or yourself were returning to these shores, would you feel confident enough
with this version of mine?

There are 3 main areas of contention

1. Personal use and gifts. Personal use is how long it will last you and we cover that in our calculator. Gifts are explained too.

2. Previous travel history and previous purchases. Putting this down in writing takes away their tactic of saying other trips you bought the same amount. lf you've been stopped previously it's a must that you list this. This includes times you've been stopped and had nothing on you. lt doesn't matter that they don't record such incidents, it doesn't stop you doing so and you'd be foolish not too. As explained in other posts, the fact they don't record such incidents is their Achilles Heel ... it leaves them wide open to people saying they've been stopped when actually they haven't.  lt's their own fault because they like to say previous trips were for bringing in tobacco ... knowing they have no records or facts to prove this. lt's a 2 edged sword of their own making.

3. Can you afford the purchase? Loans, compensation payouts and credit cards help greatly but you must take documentation to support your claim. They'll still try and push for your personal finances but they are simply not relevant. Argue the point and ask in what way are your personal finances relevant. They'll be hard pushed to give a answer that has any merit. For those that have good salaries etc, your payslip should be more than enough. We've NEVER given details of incomings and out-goings because we don't know them. They are what they are so there is no need to know. We simply say we have money left at the end of each month and savings.

Never EVER guess anything no matter how hard they try to make you. They'll use it with their poor arithmetic that all officers seem to have. Funny how it always works out according to them that you can't afford it. lf they try this, ask them to show you their arithmetic and l virtually guarantee you it will be wrong.


.................

Our SOT is not just written for Border Force ... it's written for judges and magistrates to read. That's why it includes the A-J's. Simply take our SOT and answer the A-J's, you don't have to understand the legal stuff that's in the SOT. Believe me, it makes your SOT stronger. Don't take shortcuts because that will come back and bite you on the ass! Once you've taken the time to do one SOT, then you have your own template for future trips. All you have to do then is minor alterations.

Also please beware of using 'I Do Not Consent' and especially in the case of saying you won't do the interview. We use it for a specific purpose and know when and when not to use it. This comes from experience but there is no set rules ... each stop and search is different. Refusing to do an interview  even if you use the words I Do Not Consent will result in your goods being seized.

Go with a good SOT, stick to it and counter irrelevant questions by saying that these questions are not relevant. Make them explain why they think they are relevant because in all probability they can't. Your recording of the interview should pick all this up ... AND make sure they write ALL your queries down in their notebooks along with their answers. l can tell you now that they will be reluctant to do so and we've found they prefer to drop this line of questioning rather than record it in their notebooks.

lt's like a chess game ... learn the rules, know your strengths and their weaknesses ... learn the game!


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

It's not that l have something to hide ... it's l have nothing l want to show you.
     Thread Starter
 

19-9-2012 9:52 am  #29


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Just to clarify..
The object of my post no23 above was to try and provoke some debate on the issue which might air some valid points to include in an sot thereby easing the pressure on SH's little grey cells (grin)
The object was not to dissect what SH has already put together.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I see the object of the SOT as being a way of possibly avoiding an interview with the A-J's by pre-empting the Q&A's and, has as been recently mentioned, offering evidence to suit a magistrates hearing.


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

19-9-2012 10:37 am  #30


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

eezyrider wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I see the object of the SOT as being a way of possibly avoiding an interview with the A-J's by pre-empting the Q&A's

It certainly has had that effect for me (along with pointing a mike under their noses). Been stopped now, since doing things the SH way, several times but it has never gone to an interview.


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

19-9-2012 10:46 am  #31


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Eezy, indeed it is. If stopped by UKBF l would be saying:-

Ossifer, l've taken the time and effort to answer the A-J's as stipulated in The Excise Goods (Movement, Holding and Duty Point) Regulations 2010 to show not only on the 'balance of probabilities' but in fact 'beyond reasonable doubt' that my goods are not for a commercial purpose. This avoids, as l'm sure you'll appreciate, wasting your time and mine.

Of course should said Ossifer ignore your SOT and seize your goods then said Ossifer will have to explain why to a judge or magistrate ... which would be somewhat more difficult than they are used to. The bench now have a SOT that was available to the Ossifer at the time of the seizure and was not produced afterwards. All the Ossifer has is their notebook that is not signed by yourself. Your SOT is what you rely and stand on ... plus a transcript of the recording of the interview and a copy of an SAR. No more unlevel playing field!


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

It's not that l have something to hide ... it's l have nothing l want to show you.
     Thread Starter
 

19-9-2012 12:24 pm  #32


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

The intention was not to offend.
Opinion was sought as to whether an abridged version would be better suited to the inexperienced and uninitiated.
Returning to the full version now, however I will be continuing home-bound WITH the goods of mine!

 

19-9-2012 12:47 pm  #33


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

shopperleighonsea wrote:

The intention was not to offend.
Opinion was sought as to whether an abridged version would be better suited to the inexperienced and uninitiated.
Returning to the full version now, however I will be continuing home-bound WITH the goods of mine!

You certainly haven't offended anyone here. l realise that we will have questions and even debate. We actively encourage that so we can answer any queries.

l also realise the SOT looks overwhelming, if not difficult, for the unexperienced to comprehend but we are putting forward our extensive experience with HMRC/UKBA/Border Force in order to protect such as yourselves as much as we possibly can. You may not understand the content of the SOT but Border Force certainly will.

Have a safe trip ... and get a good digital recorder! It'll be £30 well spent, believe me!


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

It's not that l have something to hide ... it's l have nothing l want to show you.
     Thread Starter
 

19-9-2012 1:35 pm  #34


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Acknowledgements for that.
The journey is planned for October and the preparations are underway.

 

19-9-2012 2:56 pm  #35


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

shopperleighonsea wrote:

Acknowledgements for that.
The journey is planned for October and the preparations are underway.

The crew here are more than willing to help. Without them, this would be a poorer place. Myself and Zaphod are indebted to all ... thanks guys!


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

It's not that l have something to hide ... it's l have nothing l want to show you.
     Thread Starter
 

20-9-2012 8:30 am  #36


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Smoking Hot wrote:

and get a good digital recorder! It'll be £30 well spent, believe me!

This! Shopperleighonsea, I had to learn the hard way that using a digital audio recorder is the way to go. I probably 'wasted' about ₤60 on cheap chinese spy cams and other nonsense. Relying on a Smart phone or Iphone as your only recording option is risky. Apparently Customs now try and actively prevent people taking their cell phones with them into the interrogation suite and anyways the 'apps' are a little flaky (SH discovered his phone automatically stopped recording after an hour for example) Sure they work...to a degree but for a 'normal' XBorder shopper who simply wants to get home unmolested and with his tobacco intact then a voice recorder is the way to go.


One word of warning though, try and get a digital voice recorder with a USB....makes life a lot easier.


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

20-9-2012 11:44 am  #37


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Apprentice or student enrolled at the University of N2D. Which, for me, is appropriate?

 

20-9-2012 12:29 pm  #38


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

shopperleighonsea wrote:

Apprentice or student enrolled at the University of N2D. Which, for me, is appropriate?

It matters not, I'm sure even the professor would admit he never stops learning. (grin)


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

22-9-2012 7:48 am  #39


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

... Project IL1, ...

An amendment to the draft is necessary as there is a typo. Upon completion of mine i noticed that the document is named PROTECT - IL1 Tax Information and Impact note.

Last edited by Smoking Hot (22-9-2012 8:02 am)

 

22-9-2012 8:05 am  #40


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

shopperleighonsea wrote:

... Project IL1, ...

An amendment to the draft is necessary as there is a typo. Upon completion of mine i noticed that the document is named PROTECT - IL1 Tax Information and Impact note.

See l told you it was draft Cheers

Too early in morning and not enough coffee, l clicked edit instead of quote on your post ... oops!


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

It's not that l have something to hide ... it's l have nothing l want to show you.
     Thread Starter
 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum

Disclaimer:- This forum is an open forum, and anyone can post their thoughts here (within reason). Therefore the views expressed here are those of individuals and not necessarily those of Nothing 2 Declare. We try to allow as much freedom of speech as possible, including views that some may find objectionable. This includes the views of UKBA, Border Force, HMRC, legitimate cross-border shoppers, non-legitimate importers, general public and anyone else that wishes to post.
Regarding ourselves, we categorically do not condone smuggling and neither do we condone the current tactics used against legitimate cross-border shoppers by UKBA/Border Force and HMRC. The current tactics benefit both Customs and smugglers alike.
Although some people use real names, there is no guarantee that they are who they say they are; it is impossible for us to verify identities of all members.