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23-9-2012 7:35 pm  #41


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Sir Henry wrote:

I have recently been sent a letter from the Post Seizure Unit which details the 'doubts' of the seizing officer about my reluctance to state how many cigs I roll from a 50 gram pouch! Why? Don't they know? Or is it just another ploy to imply - as they often do - that I'm not actually a smoker?

Do you drink coffee? How may cups do you get from a jar/packet? Don't know? perhaps you don't actually drink coffee ...

As for the SOT it may be complex, but it is a legal statement that may have to be quoted in court and needs to be thorough and all inclusive. The only objection I have to the one in the OP is that it is too detailed and will often not cover the true facts/circumstances of an individual traveller.

In one of the letters sent to me by the Post seizure Unit, it says a smoker would be expected to roll between 80 to 100 cigs froma 50g pouch, what a load of bull!

 

24-9-2012 12:07 pm  #42


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

That's true Eezy but no matter what sort of transport you use, it is theoretically possible to carry large amounts of say 20-30kg of tobacco. That is quite possible on a motorbike too, taking into account backpacks, panniers and tank bags. Theoretically possible but not all that practical. An SOT goes a long way to preempting such accusations though and would especially do so in court should it come to that.

Varied amounts that add up to a years supply is fine. The amounts are important and you'd be very unlucky indeed if you were stopped and the amount was far in excess of the amounts you have been bringing in.

lt can work the other way too though. l was once stopped with 40 odd sleeves of cigarettes and was asked about previous trips and l said l had brought in cigarettes about a year ago. When asked how much, l told them ... 100 sleeves! l didn't get the full interview and was sent on my way.

As l've said many a time, not all officers are out to get you. Some are very reasonable and professional. We invariably only hear about the bad ones.


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

When cross-border shopping, take your Statement of Truth etc and ALWAYS record the Border Force interviews and NEVER EVER sign their notebook ... Period!
     Thread Starter
 

24-9-2012 5:13 pm  #43


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Its time to put to bed the 'how many cigarettes do you get from a 50gr pouch?' question.
ALL the relevant information is contained in International Standards Organisation standard Number 15592 part3.
It is written  on the side of every packet on the continent and a few over here.

Machine rolled (plain) and standard tubes use approximately 0.75grammes of tobacco per cigarette, the exact number is in the dik (thick) section, standard diameter 7.2 mm length 80mm (tubes with filter 100mm of which 80mm tobacco).
Note concept tube (UK variant) are thinner at 6.8 mm and use .70grammes.
Also UK variant hand rolling machines are set to 6mm; continental to 7.2mm

ISO 15592/3 rolling machines are not marked you'll have to measure what your machine rolls.

Cigarette papers are marked A or B and are the same size but give different tar and nicotine levels due to nature of paper
i.e. Rizla Orange are type A Green and Red Type B

You should get 66and2/3rds cigarettes per pouch. There will be variations my bull brand roller is old and knackered like me and the rollers are loose and frayed meaning it rolls oversized cigarettes so I got 64 last time I counted. This was up on the 62 I got the time before as I didn't overpack. You can see the scope for variation. I am now on 220gr tins and get near enuf 300 per can.

Have it worked out before you are asked...
If you smoke 'skinny' hand rolleds you get UP TO 125 per pouch

bobi

 

24-9-2012 6:12 pm  #44


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Bobi wrote:

Its time to put to bed the 'how many cigarettes do you get from a 50gr pouch?' question.
i

I await the day a Sked decides that someone actually knowing, to the gramme, how many cigarettes they get to a pouch is a sure sign that they are a smuggler!

And people, don't think it won't happen-it did already with the 'do you have an open packet of cigarettes on your person' question.

"Heads they win, tails you lose" is their motto...and their *cough* 'logic'.


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

02-10-2012 3:27 pm  #45


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

A point l missed but is of importance and relates to them seizing your goods despite your SOT.  lf your SOT is good and detailed it opens up the prospects of finding the seizure 'unreasonable'  because the seizing officer had all the relevant details at the time of seizure. That means no 144 certificate and you can then take them to court for all sorts of costs.


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

When cross-border shopping, take your Statement of Truth etc and ALWAYS record the Border Force interviews and NEVER EVER sign their notebook ... Period!
     Thread Starter
 

02-10-2012 3:50 pm  #46


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Smoking Hot wrote:

A point l missed but is of importance and relates to them seizing your goods despite your SOT.  lf your SOT is good and detailed it opens up the prospects of finding the seizure 'unreasonable'  because the seizing officer had all the relevant details at the time of seizure. That means no 144 certificate and you can then take them to court for all sorts of costs.

Which is a very important point...if we can get the almost automatic issuing of 144's stopped then it means the UKBA will be more reluctant to take Condemnation Proceedings all the way....they are paranoid about any precedent for damages being set for any type of case...even if it isn't a legal precedent and just 'public knowledge'....hence 'gagging orders'.


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

02-10-2012 4:13 pm  #47


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

SH are you going to use the new SOT on your next trip ?

Garry


START HERE, By answering these questions. http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=1526
Useful documents for download : http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=34
Goods been seized, Start here.  http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=78
SOT Thanks to TBD. http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=373
 

02-10-2012 4:39 pm  #48


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

N2Dgarry wrote:

SH are you going to use the new SOT on your next trip ?

Garry

It has been one of SH's and N2D's guiding principles that everything is tested to destruction before being released into the wild. You can be sure that SH will personally test any SOT he comes up with before advising others to rely on it. And its not just SH, I and no doubt others are already using it (unfortunately I wasn't stopped this last trip so I couldn't test it).

PS Garry, I know you know that already-I'm just putting it out there for casual/new readers!

Last edited by The Blocked Dwarf (02-10-2012 4:41 pm)


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

02-10-2012 4:47 pm  #49


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

N2Dgarry wrote:

SH are you going to use the new SOT on your next trip ?

Garry

Yes we are and all future trips too. Remember we are risking the minibus and although we don't envisage actually losing it, there is always the possibility of them having it in their hands for a month or so. However if that possibility looked like becoming a reality we would have no hesitation in escalating the incident to heights(non-violent) previously unheard of. Being back in Hull would mean 'live' broadcasts from the i-phones. These broadcasts will be 'saved' by associates as we would no doubt end up arrested and the contents of our i-phones 'accidentally' deleted.


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

When cross-border shopping, take your Statement of Truth etc and ALWAYS record the Border Force interviews and NEVER EVER sign their notebook ... Period!
     Thread Starter
 

03-11-2012 11:32 am  #50


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

SH, I'm looking at the new draft of the SOT and I must admit to considering using it myself this November when we go to Zeebrugge on the ferry. After reading all the posts on here about the a-j's etc, it looks REALLY thorough.

Would you suggest that, as a newbie to "using the tools" so to speak, I should just stick to the SOT I posted up here or go with the latest draft ?


I am Homer of Borg, resistance is.............hmmmm doughnuts http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

03-11-2012 11:54 am  #51


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

The new one is best if you have time. I used this and it is much more thorough and in depth. Obviously tailor it to reflect your own circumstances as we discussed earlier. Once done and saved, you will only need to make minor alterations for future trips such as dates and booking refs. Personally, I think it's the dog's bollocks.


UKBA can "manger la merde et mourir" if you'll excuse my french.
 

03-11-2012 2:54 pm  #52


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Ewan Hoosami wrote:

The new one is best if you have time. I used this and it is much more thorough and in depth. Obviously tailor it to reflect your own circumstances as we discussed earlier. Once done and saved, you will only need to make minor alterations for future trips such as dates and booking refs. Personally, I think it's the dog's bollocks.

How do you mean if you have time Ewan ? It doesn't take long at all to "fill in the blanks". Or are you referring to if the trip is only a few hours/days away ?

I'm not off 'till the back end of November so I've got plenty of time to get sorted.

Or, have I missed something ? Wouldn't surprise me  (embarrassed)


I am Homer of Borg, resistance is.............hmmmm doughnuts http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

03-11-2012 3:23 pm  #53


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Time for the Ossifer to read it ?


START HERE, By answering these questions. http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=1526
Useful documents for download : http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=34
Goods been seized, Start here.  http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=78
SOT Thanks to TBD. http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=373
 

03-11-2012 3:45 pm  #54


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Shaky, Dont forget when you get back if you could do a write, So we can all learn if their are any new tactics BF are using. (devious)

Thanks

Last edited by N2Dgarry (03-11-2012 3:46 pm)


START HERE, By answering these questions. http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=1526
Useful documents for download : http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=34
Goods been seized, Start here.  http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=78
SOT Thanks to TBD. http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=373
 

03-11-2012 5:00 pm  #55


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

N2Dgarry wrote:

Shaky, Dont forget when you get back if you could do a write, So we can all learn if their are any new tactics BF are using. (devious)

Thanks

Not a problem Garry, I would have been doing that anyway, whether I got stopped or not.


I am Homer of Borg, resistance is.............hmmmm doughnuts http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

15-11-2012 4:31 pm  #56


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Are redrafts to SoTs necessary given the amendments to the regulations (Holding, Movement and Duty Point) and the reference to paragraph 4 only (FoI 24372) ?

 

15-11-2012 5:51 pm  #57


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Must admit Shopper, on seeing your FOI I have redone my SOT to address the a-j's individually as well as including my other relevant material.


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Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

15-11-2012 6:53 pm  #58


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

Specimen copy                    Mr A N Other
                                Anytown

To whom it may concern

I travel to Europe several times per year for holidays and excursions.European travel is a hobby that I share with my partner and during the ’low season’ costs only £75 + petrol for a minicruise to Belgium, little more than many couples would spend on a good night out with meals.
I have a log of my most recent trips (attached). I usually travel by car and ferry or motorcycle and ferry and on rare occasions may fly. This information is on my trip log.

If my journey takes me near to Belgium I sometimes buy my tobacco goods there. The amount and dates are contained within my trip log and the quantity and type of goods varies according to my needs.I usually smoke ***********? approximately  **? per day. I also occasionally purchase tobacco mainly for gifts but also in case I run out of *******?.I do not buy cigarettes.I also buy spirits and other alcoholic items for my own consumption and as occasional gifts. I save a considerable amount of money by purchasing my goods in Belgium and France(see usage calculator attached) as I am entitled to do under EU Directive 2008/118/EC

I refer you to The Excise Goods (Holding, Movement and Duty Point) Regulations 2010, Section 13, 3 (a) (b), 4 (a-j), 5 (b) as follows:-

a) My goods are for my own use and as gifts to family and friends.
b)My goods are not held for a commercial purpose and I am not a revenue trader. I am a private individual.
c) I am willing to cooperate and and respond to your questions whilst maintaining my rights.
d) My goods are located in the boot of the car, freely available for inspection. Tobacco goods are contained in holdalls for convenience and security.
e) The goods are being carried in my own car which is registered in my name.
f) My tobacco goods were purchased from a reputable retailer in Belgium and my other excise goods from various sources. I have receipts for all my goods.(see footnote)
g) My goods are sealed in their original packing.
h) My tobacco goods are listed on my trip log (attached) Most other goods are listed on my usage calculator (attached)

i) **********Enter means of funding the trip & purchases***********?
j) I am exercising my legitimate right by purchasing my excise goods in another EU member state.



Also attached is a copy of an email sent to my MP about my regular trips and purchases.

l have now given all the information you require (EU Directive 2008/118/EC) that shows my legally purchased EU duty paid excise goods are for personal use only and not held for a commercial purpose and I  request that you allow me to continue my journey with my goods.
. Uk guidelines are not law and do not supersede EU law.

Note.
When we buy our tobacco and other goods my partner and I make one joint purchase.We have asked previously that receipts be split to show our individual purchases but Belgian retailers state that they are unable to do this.


Attachments

Trip log 2011
Trip log2012
Personal usage calculations

Signed and dated as a true statement of fact:-


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Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

15-11-2012 6:56 pm  #59


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

eezyrider wrote:

Must admit Shopper, on seeing your FOI I have redone my SOT to address the a-j's individually as well as including my other relevant material.

Indeed, a debate as to 'evidential burden' is necessary.

 

15-11-2012 7:17 pm  #60


Re: Draft of new Statement of Truth

In essence I doubt that it changes much. It does however give a better understanding of what questions you would likely be asked in interview, thereby making it easier to address them in the SOT, as well as adding in what other information is relevant.

I'm sure the team will be along shortly to give an opinion.


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Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.

 
 

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