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21-12-2012 10:36 pm  #1


Progression

There's no doubt we've come a long way in such a short period of time. Our biggest problem we've had with HMRC/UKBA/Border Force has been that they were always in control and we thought that there was little we could do about it. Then came the realisation that they had rules, regulations and procedures that they had to adhere to. Only problem was that we didn't know them! So we started digging and slowly but surely we began to unearth our rights as shoppers.

What's quite sickening is that they have always been there ... it was just they were buried and deliberately hidden from us. One of the biggest finds has been the shoppers right to record the interviews. We didn't find it, it was Blocked Dwarf ... and this is the result of how far we've progressed. No longer are we just 2 individuals fighting the man! We are growing in number daily and everyone is doing their bit. We are getting stronger and stronger.

Make no bones about it, the right to record the interview is hurting Border Force. This cannot be disputed because not only do they still try and stop you recording but they've gone as far as red-acting it out of FOI's. Why would they do this if it wasn't effecting them?

How is it effecting them? Well now they have a factual and truthful account of the interview ... and yet they don't want it. Think about it ... they DON'T want a truthful and factual account. What they want is their written notebook 'version' of the interview that they want you to sign ... and get this ... as a 'truthful and factual account of the interview' ! Unbelievable!

Let me now address the boys and girls of HMRC/UKBA/Border Force ... welcome to the 21st Century. Notebook v Recording? Recording wins hands down everytime! You can present your version of the interview till the cows come home, boys and girls of HMRC/UKBA/Border Force because what we have to use against you is the truth and facts.

The wonderful irony is that we DON'T have to tell you that we are recording you! Many of us now carry more than one recorder. One (hidden) is recording from the moment we disembark and the other is to bring out openly and say "We are recording this interview". We fervently hope that you try to stop us recording for it will all be captured on our hidden recorder. Of course if you are doing everything by the book, you have nothing to worry about. 

We aren't finished there though ... next we have our Statement of Truth!

to be cont


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

It's not that l have something to hide ... it's l have nothing l want to show you.
 

21-12-2012 10:57 pm  #2


Re: Progression

also remember a recorder does not make you invinceable,ukba will change their tactics to counter act our new found weapon.

I myself have been guilty of 'forgetting to mention' certain trips,something as simple as a slip like this can cost you your goods, a tape recording with your forgotten trips not mentioned when asked,can cause you damage aswell,i carry my sar and sot  with me to refer to if ukba want to go back further than i can remember,but it doesen't (the sar)make pretty reading and it dosen't list any trips made were i have been allowed to proceed with goods,although i do have a few copies of notebooks were i have been allowed to proceed after interveiw,one was when i actually approached a ukba and declared my goods and insisted it was wrote down and documented,much to the annoyance of the ukba officer who stated he had more important things to be doing.

I learn something everytime i am stopped by ukba(at least twice a year) every time it is a learning curve and a new experience.

Last edited by warrior (21-12-2012 10:59 pm)


Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.
Better to live one day as a lion than a thousand days as a sheep'

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

21-12-2012 11:22 pm  #3


Re: Progression

warrior wrote:

also remember a recorder does not make you invinceable.

The recorder needs good factual content ... that is to say your detailed SOT. They have to go together and then you have control of the situation to a large degree. l've found that my long list of trips has resulted in no further interest from officers questioning me. Take the youtube Doncaster incident. l asked him if he wanted me to read out the list and he said 'no' and just the previous one would do.

Also they don't record any stops that don't go to interviews. That's a big mistake on their part.


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

It's not that l have something to hide ... it's l have nothing l want to show you.
     Thread Starter
 

21-12-2012 11:43 pm  #4


Re: Progression

warrior wrote:

also remember a recorder does not make you invinceable.

SH wrote:

The recorder needs good factual content ... that is to say your detailed SOT. They have to go together and then you have control of the situation to a large degree..

Both of these are the truth.

During my recent stop I actually gave the officer an incomplete answer. I haven't checked the video but I'm pretty sure I told him that I had 3.5 kilos of baccy on the backseat. He then asked me if I had bought anything else. I answered 'No'.

I forgot, in the heat of the moment, the 4 single packets (4x packs of 24) of Peter Stuyvesant I had bought at REAL to smoke en route.
Fortunately he didn't pick up on them.

However I had recorded them in my SOT so had he wanted to use my 'incomplete declaration' as a reason to take it to an interview then I could have , hopefully, have argued that it was a genuine oversight on my part as it was declared in writing and that I wasn't trying to hide etc etc

Last edited by The Blocked Dwarf (21-12-2012 11:46 pm)


"I, uh, let her out the trunk...heard what, err, She snarled at THEM...."

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

21-12-2012 11:44 pm  #5


Re: Progression

I have noticed that if you ryme your recents trips off without hesitation, when asked this does go a long way to showing you have nothing to hide,on my recent stop the ukba seemed taken aback when i rymed a few trips off and stated emphatically that one of them had concerned herself ,ha ha.I had copies of her notebook ect from the previous stop.
I am now of the opinion that she recognised me ,and maybe thought perhaps she had seized goods from me previously.
Also i didn't hesitate when asked when i next planned to travel,i had done my sums and downloaded the personel use calculator and it all tallied perfectly (happy).
Thanks to the guys here and N2D i am now a lot more confident when dealing with ukba,things certainly have progressed,ukba can sense nervousness,and in the past i have sometimes 'shook like a shitting dog',and i have seen others,some big hard men turn to jelly at the sight of ukba,they will jump on you like a 'tramp on a kipper' given the oppertunity,now i am a lot more confident when dealing with ukba,but at the same time i am always willing to listen and learn from other peoples experiences,never let your guard down always be prepared for the unexpected (happy)


Please ensure you do not divulge any information which could identify you as Border Force will use your posts here as evidence against you in court.
Better to live one day as a lion than a thousand days as a sheep'

http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

22-12-2012 5:59 am  #6


Re: Progression

I'm still going to stick with my plan for the 'how many trips' quesion and see how that goes on the next stop. That plan is to say that I don't know and to answer would be a guess. But since I know that border force always scan my passport I'm sure they can check for me. Clearly I wouldn't be hiding anything and indeed inviting them to check the 'facts'.

 

22-12-2012 10:03 am  #7


Re: Progression

Moved  ... http://n2d.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=4029#p4029

Last edited by Smoking Hot (22-12-2012 11:50 am)

 

22-12-2012 11:52 am  #8


Re: Progression

Smoking Hot wrote:

There's no doubt we've come a long way in such a short period of time. Our biggest problem we've had with HMRC/UKBA/Border Force has been that they were always in control and we thought that there was little we could do about it. Then came the realisation that they had rules, regulations and procedures that they had to adhere to. Only problem was that we didn't know them! So we started digging and slowly but surely we began to unearth our rights as shoppers.

What's quite sickening is that they have always been there ... it was just they were buried and deliberately hidden from us. One of the biggest finds has been the shoppers right to record the interviews. We didn't find it, it was Blocked Dwarf ... and this is the result of how far we've progressed. No longer are we just 2 individuals fighting the man! We are growing in number daily and everyone is doing their bit. We are getting stronger and stronger.

Make no bones about it, the right to record the interview is hurting Border Force. This cannot be disputed because not only do they still try and stop you recording but they've gone as far as red-acting it out of FOI's. Why would they do this if it wasn't effecting them?

How is it effecting them? Well now they have a factual and truthful account of the interview ... and yet they don't want it. Think about it ... they DON'T want a truthful and factual account. What they want is their written notebook 'version' of the interview that they want you to sign ... and get this ... as a 'truthful and factual account of the interview' ! Unbelievable!

Let me now address the boys and girls of HMRC/UKBA/Border Force ... welcome to the 21st Century. Notebook v Recording? Recording wins hands down everytime! You can present your version of the interview till the cows come home, boys and girls of HMRC/UKBA/Border Force because what we have to use against you is the truth and facts.

The wonderful irony is that we DON'T have to tell you that we are recording you! Many of us now carry more than one recorder. One (hidden) is recording from the moment we disembark and the other is to bring out openly and say "We are recording this interview". We fervently hope that you try to stop us recording for it will all be captured on our hidden recorder. Of course if you are doing everything by the book, you have nothing to worry about. 

We aren't finished there though ... next we have our Statement of Truth!

to be cont

I was armed with a voice recorder and a Statement of Truth on the 21/12/2011, it did not stop the officer in question inventing a lie to invalidate my Statement of Truth, this lie, false evidence to be exact, was brought out in the open at the magistrates stage, I still lost although I could prove it was false. I appealed to the crown, they still had the balls to enter this "evidence" into their case at the crown, I proved it wrong again, but the judge deemed it fit to dismiss this evidence, on top of that, the officer was allowed to leave the witness stand and go and bring in more fake evidence, well, they could not back it up after the weeks adjournment, I lost again as you all know!

I am still fighting this injustice, my MP has confirmed that he has written to The Bar Pro Bono Unit and included a personal letter with the application. He has also confirmed that he has written to the Lord Chancellors Department regarding these iffy costs, he will keep me updated, I will pass on any updates in here (legally permitting)

I had never heard of The Bar Pro Bono Unit and what its functions are until after the Hull Crown Court fiasco, it would be interesting to know how I would of faired if I had a good barrister defending me, I won the battles in that court but I lost the war, the barrister must of had an idea that I should of won because she told me that she was requesting a , C144 is it? to be signed by the judge

 

22-12-2012 12:20 pm  #9


Re: Progression

Tony1956 wrote:

I was armed with a voice recorder and a Statement of Truth on the 21/12/2011

Simply giving someone a gun doesn't mean they can use it. As l recall you had issues with your number of trips? Were these all listed on your SOT? The SOT is only as good as you make it.


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

22-12-2012 12:28 pm  #10


Re: Progression

Tony1956 wrote:

the barrister must of had an idea that I should of won because she told me that she was requesting a , C144 is it? to be signed by the judge

That's standard practice in all Condemnation Proceedings


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png We don't do nice ... we do right!

It's not that l have something to hide ... it's l have nothing l want to show you.
     Thread Starter
 

22-12-2012 12:48 pm  #11


Re: Progression

Marlboro wrote:

Tony1956 wrote:

I was armed with a voice recorder and a Statement of Truth on the 21/12/2011

Simply giving someone a gun doesn't mean they can use it. As l recall you had issues with your number of trips? Were these all listed on your SOT? The SOT is only as good as you make it.

When they decided to suspend the interview to a later date, their manager recommended to me that I show all previous trips, I told him that I can only find out the info by checking back through the bank statements, the ones that were on my SOT were the ones I found in my bank statements, I only book my trips through the bank!
The officer suspended the interview while he spoke to his boss, he came back and shortly afterwards asked me if I had a June trip in my SOT, at that time he made it as though I misled him by not mentioning it, I told him that I would not of missed it out on purpose, but he used that against me by accusing me of misleading him, it was only during my research into this, double checking with the bank, ferry companies etc that I discovered that I did not travel in June at all, after that I was convinced that that was purposely put in there to invalidate my SOT

 

22-12-2012 12:51 pm  #12


Re: Progression

George wrote:

BAR pro Bono????? TONY that  (happy)Sounds a bit "Jimmy Savllie" to me, but what would I know?

Its a charity that provides legal assistance to those that cannot afford it or where legal aid is not available, they cover all areas of law, you can only be referred by a solicitor, citizens advice, MP etc, there are quite a few top barristers that actually do Pro Bono work!

 

22-12-2012 1:06 pm  #13


Re: Progression

Thats why I'm going to stick with not telling them as it would be a guess and that would not be a truthfull answer. Will ask them to check teir own records. They must know. Of course I actually know that they have not recorded all of my trips!!!

Last edited by celticmanx (22-12-2012 1:06 pm)

 

22-12-2012 1:09 pm  #14


Re: Progression

celticmanx wrote:

Thats why I'm going to stick with not telling them as it would be a guess and that would not be a truthfull answer. Will ask them to check teir own records. They must know. Of course I actually know that they have not recorded all of my trips!!!

Ive destroyed all my bank statements so I cannot check anyway now, so thats going to be my response, "I dont know and I am not going to try and guess"

 

22-12-2012 1:13 pm  #15


Re: Progression

Tony1956 wrote:

Marlboro wrote:

Tony1956 wrote:

I was armed with a voice recorder and a Statement of Truth on the 21/12/2011

Simply giving someone a gun doesn't mean they can use it. As l recall you had issues with your number of trips? Were these all listed on your SOT? The SOT is only as good as you make it.

When they decided to suspend the interview to a later date, their manager recommended to me that I show all previous trips, I told him that I can only find out the info by checking back through the bank statements, the ones that were on my SOT were the ones I found in my bank statements, I only book my trips through the bank!
The officer suspended the interview while he spoke to his boss, he came back and shortly afterwards asked me if I had a June trip in my SOT, at that time he made it as though I misled him by not mentioning it, I told him that I would not of missed it out on purpose, but he used that against me by accusing me of misleading him, it was only during my research into this, double checking with the bank, ferry companies etc that I discovered that I did not travel in June at all, after that I was convinced that that was purposely put in there to invalidate my SOT

One trip doesn't invalidate your SOT. What's your SOT like? Can we see it if you take your personal details out?


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

22-12-2012 1:13 pm  #16


Re: Progression

I will constantly be updating my SAR. I have a request in just now. If they send me a SAR like the last time, I'll produce it if they say anything different to whats on it. My last one was 1 journey in 3 years. I go as often as I can. And it didn't include the journey with the siezure in February. So for me, 'I don't know and don't want to guess, please check your own records.'

 

22-12-2012 1:23 pm  #17


Re: Progression

Marlboro wrote:

Tony1956 wrote:

Marlboro wrote:


Simply giving someone a gun doesn't mean they can use it. As l recall you had issues with your number of trips? Were these all listed on your SOT? The SOT is only as good as you make it.

When they decided to suspend the interview to a later date, their manager recommended to me that I show all previous trips, I told him that I can only find out the info by checking back through the bank statements, the ones that were on my SOT were the ones I found in my bank statements, I only book my trips through the bank!
The officer suspended the interview while he spoke to his boss, he came back and shortly afterwards asked me if I had a June trip in my SOT, at that time he made it as though I misled him by not mentioning it, I told him that I would not of missed it out on purpose, but he used that against me by accusing me of misleading him, it was only during my research into this, double checking with the bank, ferry companies etc that I discovered that I did not travel in June at all, after that I was convinced that that was purposely put in there to invalidate my SOT

One trip doesn't invalidate your SOT. What's your SOT like? Can we see it if you take your personal details out?

The reviewing officer said I failed to disclose a trip in June 2011 and the officer thought it was a deliberate attempt to mislead him, this supposed failure to disclose is also in the officers signed witness statement!

 

22-12-2012 1:23 pm  #18


Re: Progression

Tony1956 wrote:

George wrote:

BAR pro Bono????? TONY that  (happy)Sounds a bit "Jimmy Savllie" to me, but what would I know?

Its a charity that provides legal assistance to those that cannot afford it or where legal aid is not available, they cover all areas of law, you can only be referred by a solicitor, citizens advice, MP etc, there are quite a few top barristers that actually do Pro Bono work!

But it would only be in England Tony, The old boys network calling themselves the Scottish Bar Assoc would never ever stand for that, oh no no no.

 

22-12-2012 1:23 pm  #19


Re: Progression

celticmanx wrote:

I will constantly be updating my SAR. I have a request in just now. If they send me a SAR like the last time, I'll produce it if they say anything different to whats on it. My last one was 1 journey in 3 years. I go as often as I can. And it didn't include the journey with the siezure in February. So for me, 'I don't know and don't want to guess, please check your own records.'

l go the other way and list everything. Thing is that l noticed was when goonies stop you and put bag through xray like they do at Hull and you haven't got any or very little tobacco is they send you on your way without checking passports or anything. That means theres no record of them doing so. l know SH has commented on this. So what's to stop me if l am carrying tobacco and dont get stopped and then saying l was stopped and putting it on my SOT. lf they have no record of these sort of stops how would they know any different?

Last edited by Marlboro (22-12-2012 1:25 pm)


http://i45.tinypic.com/24uxqug.png
 

22-12-2012 1:30 pm  #20


Re: Progression

Not sure if this is appropriate but up until earlier this year I always bought my tobacco "Locally", but having come across N2D gave me enough information to strike out on my own and once the costings were considered it was clearly a no brainer.

Roughly my savings were £2,000 on retail so well worth spending a bit of time doing some reading to save the equivalent of a skilled man's months wages.

To expand on that, it's not such a big deal to cross the channel and "load up" but having that slight edge when it comes to dealing with Customs does boost the confidence of completing a "home run".


Next trip planned for the new year and based on the savings I may well hitch a lift with the Hull Massive and see how the pros do it..

 

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